SHIP OF THESEUS

[Age]

Whichever ship has "Theseus" painted on the stern! (and it's a totally new ship btw)

to obvious to be true,

you could also state the ship which has Theseus's crew upon the ship,

ANY one could state absolutely ANY 'thing'. But, ONLY 'that' what IS AGREED WITH IS what people ACCEPT.

if it were that easy then scholars wouldnt have the time to discuss such a delicate matter.

So-called "scholars", like "others", would prefer to PICK A 'position', and FIGHT FOR 'that position' ONLY, rather than actually just discuss 'things' OPENLY and Honestly UNTIL the ACTUAL and IRREFUTABLE Truth IS FOUND and DISCOVERED.

[Age]

physical things are unique

a story is published in identical books 10,000 times (copies) ...

which is "the" story?

-Imp

TO 'one', WHICHEVER one that IS AGREED WITH, and SAID TO BE.

[Alexis Jacobi]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood (Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship (Ship B).

But there’s the ship’s computer system with all navigation records, all records of the mechanics of the ship over its life and voyages. All closed circuit camera footage inside and outside the ship.

While Ship A was being taken apart they stored the computer and navigation system in the hold of another ship which was subsequently stolen by Somali pirates. No one know where that ship is.

Ship A had to get a new system. It became a different ship with a new destiny at that moment.

Ship B though built from the corpse of A also got a new system. It lost its ‘identity’ and it could never be restored and so never re-become itself. The present title owner of Ship B has an Ahab-like personality and has made it his life mission to find the Real Identity of his beloved boat. He needs donations though. (That’s where you-plural come in.)

Everything hinges on tracking down the Somali pirates and recapturing the ‘soul’ of the real boat.

[Harbal]

Describe ship A, and ship B, and then describe the process that started with ship A and culminated with ship B. You now have a set of facts, which amount to the truth of the matter. It makes no difference to the facts whether you call ship A and B the same ship or different ships, it only makes a difference to what you mean by the terms, "same" or "different". That's how I see it, anyway.

[Lacewing]

As early as 1953, researchers discovered that the atomic building blocks of us humans are permanently exchanged. 98% of all atoms are replaced after just one year.

If there is constancy in me, it is not material.

Fascinating to consider a continually re-generating form within what (only) appears to us to be a dense physical world/Universe.



The most rigid thing of all possibly being one's perspective with which it is seen and experienced.

[Sculptor]

je suis le navire de thésée.

None of us have a single molecule that was present in our bodies seven years ago, it is said.

[Constantine]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Romuli



Romulus' house in Rome was rebuilt yearly by the Romans. I never heard it said they were stumped by The Ship of Theseus because they never took the scraps and constructed a new hut out of the old one. This is a VERY important point we are overlooking.

Would the status of the maintained ship change to a new ship, with the ship of Theseus ceasing randomly, if there was only ever one ship to contend with, with no second?

Second we miss put on questions of place/space and utility. Romulus' house was a Roman institution, went through a monarchy, republic and the principate. Romulus was long dead in the latter two. Everyone still recognized it as what it was, Romulus' house. If it was a gypsy wagon he lived in, would it still be his house if it was turned into a winter sled for the alps delivering wood? Or if a actual gypsy moved into it? Wouldn't it be a gypsy house then? We tend to add words like "my OLD house" to such situations. The addition has a determination that lends meaning to a statement of property. Was mine, not now. Could Theseus still lay claim to his ship on display as his ship? Sorta, maybe. Probably with political wrangling but not at first. But Romulus could undoubtedly if he popped up and everyone instantly knew him for who he was. That's his house. Everyone says so, that's the institution. His house. But Theseus.... it's harder. A ship has aspects of a government corporation (at least that type of ship). It was retired and put on display for the larger society. It has functions beyond what it originally had. It acquired these as much as it acquired new wood.

Denmark must be destroyed.

[LuckyR]

je suis le navire de thésée.

None of us have a single molecule that was present in our bodies seven years ago, it is said.

Exactly. In conscious organisms many if not most consider memories plus personalities to constitute the individual, as opposed to the discrete molecules that make up their bodies. Hence why many consider their relatives "gone" upon the onset of late stage Alzheimers.

In the case of nonconscious entities, such as a home, the physical entity comprises the individual entity, such that after a home remodel, many consider their home changed even though it is in the same location, at the same address with the same footprint and, say the same exterior appearance.

[Sculptor]

je suis le navire de thésée.

None of us have a single molecule that was present in our bodies seven years ago, it is said.

Exactly. In conscious organisms many if not most consider memories plus personalities to constitute the individual, as opposed to the discrete molecules that make up their bodies. Hence why many consider their relatives "gone" upon the onset of late stage Alzheimers.

In the case of nonconscious entities, such as a home, the physical entity comprises the individual entity, such that after a home remodel, many consider their home changed even though it is in the same location, at the same address with the same footprint and, say the same exterior appearance.

Yes I accept that in Alzheimers we slowly witness the slow death of the person. Whatever a person might call a "soul" evaporates before our eyes. IThe essence of a person is the same as the unique organisation of the living neural matter.

"Home" is much like a soul in tis respect. WIthout the people who reproduce and live with the concept a house is never a home and when people move house the "home" goes with them, ever changing with the changing members of the family.

[Gary Childress]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood (Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship (Ship B).

But there’s the ship’s computer system with all navigation records, all records of the mechanics of the ship over its life and voyages. All closed circuit camera footage inside and outside the ship.

While Ship A was being taken apart they stored the computer and navigation system in the hold of another ship which was subsequently stolen by Somali pirates. No one know where that ship is.

Ship A had to get a new system. It became a different ship with a new destiny at that moment.

Ship B though built from the corpse of A also got a new system. It lost its ‘identity’ and it could never be restored and so never re-become itself. The present title owner of Ship B has an Ahab-like personality and has made it his life mission to find the Real Identity of his beloved boat. He needs donations though. (That’s where you-plural come in.)

Everything hinges on tracking down the Somali pirates and recapturing the ‘soul’ of the real boat.

That ship is gone. It's not here anymore. There's no point in "recovering" it. Build a new one in dry dock using the best design you know how. Let the Somali pirates have it. Stop being so sentimental. You and Neurath will just have to get over it.

[Gary Childress]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood (Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship (Ship B).

But there’s the ship’s computer system with all navigation records, all records of the mechanics of the ship over its life and voyages. All closed circuit camera footage inside and outside the ship.

While Ship A was being taken apart they stored the computer and navigation system in the hold of another ship which was subsequently stolen by Somali pirates. No one know where that ship is.

Ship A had to get a new system. It became a different ship with a new destiny at that moment.

Ship B though built from the corpse of A also got a new system. It lost its ‘identity’ and it could never be restored and so never re-become itself. The present title owner of Ship B has an Ahab-like personality and has made it his life mission to find the Real Identity of his beloved boat. He needs donations though. (That’s where you-plural come in.)

Everything hinges on tracking down the Somali pirates and recapturing the ‘soul’ of the real boat.

That ship is gone. It's not here anymore. There's no point in "recovering" it. Build a new one in dry dock using the best design you know how. Let the Somali pirates have it. Stop being so sentimental. You and Neurath will just have to get over it.

If you have any trouble dealing with the loss of the ship, then FOR NO PRICE WHATSOEVER, I will allow you in my public correspondence course on how I learned to deal with catastrophic loss beginning with loss of my "sanity" in 1991 through the loss of my father on March 16, 2023, 1 day after his 87th Birthday. When in doubt, ask an expert, AJ. Don't spend your money on two-bit classroom-educated theorists whose worst experience with "loss" is not getting full payment for their services to a client when they billed medical insurance.

Or do it your way and pretend you're smarter than I am. See where that gets you any place different than where you are today.

[Toppsy Kretts]

As early as 1953, researchers discovered that the atomic building blocks of us humans are permanently exchanged. Depending on the study, most of the atoms in our human body are replaced every 5-7 years. 98% of all atoms are replaced after just one year. The exchange takes place at different speeds (2):

the water stored in the body is exchanged every 16 days (after all, we consist of approx. 72% water)
the atoms of the skin every 4 weeks
the atoms of the liver every 6 weeks
Calcium and phosphorus in the bones usually every 8-11 months (through crystal growth and dissolution processes)
Applied to my body, this means that 50 kg of my weight was not part of my body 3 weeks ago and only very few of my 7 * 10 ^ 27 atoms were mine 10 years ago.

More plastically: three weeks ago, only the mass of my head and right leg were part of my body. A year ago, only the mass of my two hands belonged to me, the rest is new (3). What was still mine then is now installed elsewhere.

If there is constancy in me, it is not material. Anyone who identifies with their body will therefore easily come across the Theseus paradox (4), which has already been discussed by ancient philosophers and even in financial matters.

[/quote]

i see what you mean. but your identity conclusion to the human body through the Paradox of "The ship of Theseus" is not thoroughly understood by myself. can u "simplify" it?

[Toppsy Kretts]

Age just just comments to get a reaction how desperate can someone legitimately be. (Age):"EXPECIALLY"(Age) on a philosophical forum.

[Iwannaplato]

i see what you mean. but your identity conclusion to the human body through the Paradox of "The ship of Theseus" is not thoroughly understood by myself. can u "simplify" it?

If all the atoms in your body are replaced, is it still you?

[Toppsy Kretts]

i see what you mean. but your identity conclusion to the human body through the Paradox of "The ship of Theseus" is not thoroughly understood by myself. can u "simplify" it?

If all the atoms in your body are replaced, is it still you?

I woudl have to assume that the mind is what calles you...you. so yes?

If the Theseus inhabits a ship then that is called his ship specifically. though the ship he has sailed upon before is not determine to be his now holding ship.