SHIP OF THESEUS

[Toppsy Kretts]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood ( Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship ( Ship B ).

The ship A is the holding Theseus' crew. And arrives at the dock of Athens.
The ship B is also arriving at the same dock but with one scavenger who built a ship with old wood.

Neither can be the same ship.

This seems as the case of identity...it is still discussed amongst scholars to this day, as a paradox amongst men.


=(EDIT)=
Well, now it has come to my attention. That the dynamic of the ship of Theseus paradox. Is in a way transcribed to the form of identity, in the sense of the term.
What this means to me is…Whatever ship that Theseus the character, Inhabits. That is the ship of Theseus.

No matter how many times you interchange a piece of wood. No matter how many times you've sailed across the world and have to replace a stern or a flag or a sail or any part of a ship. The ship of Theseus, Is one that's organized under the influence of Theseus himself. Comprised of the people he held with him and the times of him conducting his apparel upon the ship. And the influence in which he had during his time aboard. This resonates to me as the solid truth to which ship out of A and B Conducts itself to be reasoned as the “Ship of Theseus”.

Though if it were that easy then this topic wouldn't be challenged and discussed as well as it is to this day.

[attofishpi]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood ( Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship ( Ship B ).

The ship A is the holding Theseus' crew. And arrives at the dock of Athens.
The ship B is also arriving at the same dock but with one scavenger who built a ship with old wood.

Neither can be the same ship.

This seems as the case of identity...it is still discussed amongst scholars to this day, as a paradox amongst men.

Good thread!

Are you familiar with the Paradox of Trigger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

[Toppsy Kretts]

Good thread!

Are you familiar with the Paradox of Trigger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

I WAS NOT!!!!!

a good example indeed my friend. thank you for bringing that up.

so again dear fellow, which do you think is the boat of Theseus?

[attofishpi]

Good thread!

Are you familiar with the Paradox of Trigger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

I WAS NOT!!!!!

a good example indeed my friend. thank you for bringing that up.

Yes, I think the scriptwriter may have heard of this Theseus paradox. It's hilarious.

..so again dear fellow, which do you think is the boat of Theseus?

Whichever ship has "Theseus" painted on the stern! (and it's a totally new ship btw)

[Toppsy Kretts]

Whichever ship has "Theseus" painted on the stern! (and it's a totally new ship btw)

to obvious to be true,

you could also state the ship which has Theseus's crew upon the ship,

if it were that easy then scholars wouldnt have the time to discuss such a delicate matter.

[Impenitent]

physical things are unique

a story is published in identical books 10,000 times (copies) ...

which is "the" story?

-Imp

[attofishpi]

Whichever ship has "Theseus" painted on the stern! (and it's a totally new ship btw)

to obvious to be true,

you could also state the ship which has Theseus's crew upon the ship,

if it were that easy then scholars wouldnt have the time to discuss such a delicate matter.

It is that easy. What you have is two new ships. The one that has Theseus on it's stern is NOW the Theseus.

[Gary Childress]

physical things are unique

a story is published in identical books 10,000 times (copies) ...

which is "the" story?

-Imp

The one that was published in the original language by the people who saw the world the way they did via the particular experiences they themselves had which caused them to percieve things the way they did.

Everything after that is degraded hearsay and subject to corruption from imperfect duplication. Like the way an original computer software program eventually becomes corrupt through the accumulation of more and more memory errors eventually resulting in the irretrievable loss of the original..

[promethean75]

"It is that easy. What you have is two new ships. The one that has Theseus on it's stern is NOW the Theseus."

Then the first, original theseus ship was something more than the parts and properties it was composed of? If not, a reassembly of those parts and properties should create the same ship, no prob. This is a Cartesian nonproblem based on a misunderstanding of essences and substances. There is no ghost in the boat and the whole thing is a rylean category mistake.

We are of course not counting the molecular and atomic changes that are always happening becuz we're not doing the Heraclitean river thing again so yes a ship can be the same ship five minutes later don't even try it.

Wait a minute hold on. What if say a missle hits the ship and it loses parts and properties as a result, thereby significantly changing it's basic physical composition? It's technically a different ship, or is it just a different version of the same ship?

[Iwannaplato]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood ( Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship ( Ship B ).

The ship A is the holding Theseus' crew. And arrives at the dock of Athens.
The ship B is also arriving at the same dock but with one scavenger who built a ship with old wood.

Neither can be the same ship.

This seems as the case of identity...it is still discussed amongst scholars to this day, as a paradox amongst men.

Ship of Theses gets gnarly when you apply it to the matter in your own body.

[Toppsy Kretts]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood ( Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship ( Ship B ).

The ship A is the holding Theseus' crew. And arrives at the dock of Athens.
The ship B is also arriving at the same dock but with one scavenger who built a ship with old wood.

Neither can be the same ship.

This seems as the case of identity...it is still discussed amongst scholars to this day, as a paradox amongst men.

Ship of Theses gets gnarly when you apply it to the matter in your own body.

yeah like transgenders and shit but they dont keep the penis the chop off no do they try and rebuild a new "them"

[Iwannaplato]

yeah like transgenders and shit but they dont keep the penis the chop off no do they try and rebuild a new "them"

Well, no, I meant everyone...

As early as 1953, researchers discovered that the atomic building blocks of us humans are permanently exchanged. Depending on the study, most of the atoms in our human body are replaced every 5-7 years. 98% of all atoms are replaced after just one year. The exchange takes place at different speeds (2):

the water stored in the body is exchanged every 16 days (after all, we consist of approx. 72% water)
the atoms of the skin every 4 weeks
the atoms of the liver every 6 weeks
Calcium and phosphorus in the bones usually every 8-11 months (through crystal growth and dissolution processes)
Applied to my body, this means that 50 kg of my weight was not part of my body 3 weeks ago and only very few of my 7 * 10 ^ 27 atoms were mine 10 years ago.

More plastically: three weeks ago, only the mass of my head and right leg were part of my body. A year ago, only the mass of my two hands belonged to me, the rest is new (3). What was still mine then is now installed elsewhere.

If there is constancy in me, it is not material. Anyone who identifies with their body will therefore easily come across the Theseus paradox (4), which has already been discussed by ancient philosophers and even in financial matters.

[attofishpi]

Trigger, a council road sweeper has a broom that he’s been using for a month. At the end of the month he realises the broom head could do with replacing.
He puts the old broom head into a recycling bin.
After a few weeks, Trigger has worn down the handle of his broom and puts the handle into recycling also, and places a new handle on the broom.
We can say at this point, that Trigger has a NEW broom.

Dave, another council worker needs a broom. He goes to recycling and finds a broom head, and a broom handle (ya the ones Trigger had left).
Dave puts the broom head onto the handle. Does he have Triggers original broom?
We can say at the point, that YES – Dave now has Triggers broom.

But alas, it’s Dave’s broom now!

So using the above analogy and applying it to the Theseus scenario.
Ship B is CLOSER to being the original ship. But when a ship is constructed, it is a NEW ship regardless of where the material came from.

Whereas ship refitting remains the ORIGINAL ship - no matter how much material was used!

Ok, I will change my stance, ship A remains the Theseus. (see a 'philosopher' CAN change his mind.)

[Age]

A paradox where a ship is fully taken apart and replaced with new wood ( Ship A ), whilst a scavenger comprises the old wood that had been replaced, built into a new ship. Exactly the same as the old ship ( Ship B ).

The ship A is the holding Theseus' crew. And arrives at the dock of Athens.
The ship B is also arriving at the same dock but with one scavenger who built a ship with old wood.

Neither can be the same ship.

This seems as the case of identity...it is still discussed amongst scholars to this day, as a paradox amongst men.

There is NO 'paradox' here. Well to me anyway.

This 'scenario' is VERY SIMILAR TO 'the chicken and the egg', and which one of 'them' came first. To which the ACTUAL ANSWER REALLY IS VERY EASY and VERY SIMPLE to ARRIVE AT, and UNDERSTAND.

[Age]

Good thread!

Are you familiar with the Paradox of Trigger?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56yN2zHtofM

I WAS NOT!!!!!

a good example indeed my friend. thank you for bringing that up.

Yes, I think the scriptwriter may have heard of this Theseus paradox. It's hilarious.

..so again dear fellow, which do you think is the boat of Theseus?

Whichever ship has "Theseus" painted on the stern! (and it's a totally new ship btw)

See HOW SIMPLE and EASY 'it' REALLY IS, or COULD BE.