Freeing of the Will

[Wizard22]

Here is the next main problem of Free-Will.

Those who believe in it, are very rare. The 'normies', if you will, consciously or subconsciously choose Safety before and above Freedom. So, to the masses of humanity, the ideal of Free-Will is purged. Some, in their youth, entertain the notion as the concept of "Individuality" and "Independence". These notions linger, for awhile, before young adults sell-out to the System/Society/State/Church. Very few young people stick to their youthful, naive romantic idealisms.

Why do so few?

Because most of these romantic idealisms are empty promises and lies, packaged and sold to Western people at a young age. Indoctrination and Propaganda. A clever ruse, to sell you things you shouldn't want, and don't need. Hence it's an easy-come, easy-go relationship, between youthful idealism and corporate practicality. Most of humanity desire the 'Western' middle-class lifestyle and standard-of-living. They are idealistic enough to believe, that "all are created equal" and "equal opportunity" when it comes to white washing and integrating into these Anglo-dominated establishments and governments. The reality? It's not so easy, ask a black person.


So I will contend here, that the masses are deprived 'truer' images and notions of Free-Will. It is neglected from the public, possibly hidden intentionally by the "top 1%" who tend to hoard wealth, ancient knowledge, and never let it out beyond their family and tribe. Thus true class mobility, with respect to the world's "Old Money", is hidden from public view. As it should be, by common sense.

Thus, the "Free-Will" of most humanity, is a lowly thing, a lowly ideal, which most will trade for $50,000.00 a year. It's not worth much.

[Age]

Here is the next main problem of Free-Will.

Those who believe in it, are very rare. The 'normies', if you will, consciously or subconsciously choose Safety before and above Freedom. So, to the masses of humanity, the ideal of Free-Will is purged. Some, in their youth, entertain the notion as the concept of "Individuality" and "Independence". These notions linger, for awhile, before young adults sell-out to the System/Society/State/Church. Very few young people stick to their youthful, naive romantic idealisms.

Why do so few?

Because most of these romantic idealisms are empty promises and lies, packaged and sold to Western people at a young age. Indoctrination and Propaganda. A clever ruse, to sell you things you shouldn't want, and don't need. Hence it's an easy-come, easy-go relationship, between youthful idealism and corporate practicality. Most of humanity desire the 'Western' middle-class lifestyle and standard-of-living. They are idealistic enough to believe, that "all are created equal" and "equal opportunity" when it comes to white washing and integrating into these Anglo-dominated establishments and governments. The reality? It's not so easy, ask a black person.


So I will contend here, that the masses are deprived 'truer' images and notions of Free-Will. It is neglected from the public, possibly hidden intentionally by the "top 1%" who tend to hoard wealth, ancient knowledge, and never let it out beyond their family and tribe. Thus true class mobility, with respect to the world's "Old Money", is hidden from public view. As it should be, by common sense.

Thus, the "Free-Will" of most humanity, is a lowly thing, a lowly ideal, which most will trade for $50,000.00 a year. It's not worth much.

What does the phrase or term 'free will' even mean or refer to, to you, EXACTLY, "wizard22"?

[Flannel Jesus]

Here is the next main problem of Free-Will.

Those who believe in it, are very rare. The 'normies', if you will, consciously or subconsciously choose Safety before and above Freedom. So, to the masses of humanity, the ideal of Free-Will is purged.

Why do you think this? What's your source? Most sources I find say the opposite, that most people believe in free will.

[Iwannaplato]

Here is the next main problem of Free-Will.

Those who believe in it, are very rare. The 'normies', if you will, consciously or subconsciously choose Safety before and above Freedom. So, to the masses of humanity, the ideal of Free-Will is purged.

Why do you think this? What's your source? Most sources I find say the opposite, that most people believe in free will.

Prepare for a psychic claim and the use of either of the following adverbs: 'actually' or 'really.' Generally in a negative sentence.
I don't think you understand that free will, for some people, means freedom from the need to justify. Even reason itself is a kind of LGBTQ gulag.

[Wizard22]

What does the phrase or term 'free will' even mean or refer to, to you, EXACTLY, wizard22"?

Repost:

Does freedom exist? Is one creature or organism 'freer' than another? A chicken can't fly so well. A hawk, duck, sparrow, can fly much better by comparison. A hawk is 'freer' to fly. The hawk will perceive a human, unable to fly, as less free. So freedom is relative to Ability. But a hawk, and a human, cannot swim as freely as a fish, a dolphin, a shark. Again this is another point to remark the general relativity of Freedom.

Free is measured by Ability.

What is will(power)? Through the course of this thread, what people 'will' do is driven first by Need and second by Want. Thus most people agree that being hungry, and willing to eat, is not a "Choice" in the conventional sense. But what you Want to eat, is a choice. Thus Willpower defaults to the Secondary wants, not the Primary needs. This is where 'Determinists' get caught up on the details. Determinists are focused on "Needs". Free-Willists are often focused on the "Wants", pertaining to Will.

How do you measure a person's Willpower? Assume there's a snow storm, a blizzard, that you must travel through. Person A will give up at the first sign of discomfort or trouble, turn around and go home. Person B will trudge along much deeper, maybe even going so far that he or she may die in the snow storm. This is where Free-Will is poignant. Person B has a choice, continue further, or turn around. Person C, has great willpower, and will not give up under any condition, risking death doesn't even cross his or her mind. Person C has the most Willpower, the most Will, the most 'umph!' in terms of progression. Perhaps they all survive. Perhaps none of them do.


Since Freedom exists, and since Willpower exists, Free-Will must exist by definition and extension of these terms.

Any disagreement then, is a disagreement of framing the definitions.

In order for a Determinist to "get rid of" Free-Will, you'd need to cancel ALL freedom and cancel ALL willpower. Since this is impossible, Determinism is an illogical, and irrational category of thought. It's not based on reality.

[Age]

What does the phrase or term 'free will' even mean or refer to, to you, EXACTLY, wizard22"?

Repost:

Does freedom exist? Is one creature or organism 'freer' than another? A chicken can't fly so well. A hawk, duck, sparrow, can fly much better by comparison. A hawk is 'freer' to fly. The hawk will perceive a human, unable to fly, as less free. So freedom is relative to Ability. But a hawk, and a human, cannot swim as freely as a fish, a dolphin, a shark. Again this is another point to remark the general relativity of Freedom.

Free is measured by Ability.

What is will(power)? Through the course of this thread, what people 'will' do is driven first by Need and second by Want. Thus most people agree that being hungry, and willing to eat, is not a "Choice" in the conventional sense. But what you Want to eat, is a choice. Thus Willpower defaults to the Secondary wants, not the Primary needs. This is where 'Determinists' get caught up on the details. Determinists are focused on "Needs". Free-Willists are often focused on the "Wants", pertaining to Will.

How do you measure a person's Willpower? Assume there's a snow storm, a blizzard, that you must travel through. Person A will give up at the first sign of discomfort or trouble, turn around and go home. Person B will trudge along much deeper, maybe even going so far that he or she may die in the snow storm. This is where Free-Will is poignant. Person B has a choice, continue further, or turn around. Person C, has great willpower, and will not give up under any condition, risking death doesn't even cross his or her mind. Person C has the most Willpower, the most Will, the most 'umph!' in terms of progression. Perhaps they all survive. Perhaps none of them do.


Since Freedom exists, and since Willpower exists, Free-Will must exist by definition and extension of these terms.

Any disagreement then, is a disagreement of framing the definitions.

In order for a Determinist to "get rid of" Free-Will, you'd need to cancel ALL freedom and cancel ALL willpower. Since this is impossible, Determinism is an illogical, and irrational category of thought. It's not based on reality.

So, to 'you', the words 'free will', when used together, mean or refer to 'what', EXACTLY, "wizard22"?

Or, if the phrase or term 'free will' does NOT mean NOR refer to; the ability to CHOOSE, to 'you', then this would explain WHY 'you' do NOT have a PERFECTLY UNIFIED FITTED TOGETHER Picture, YET.

[Age]

Here is the next main problem of Free-Will.

Those who believe in it, are very rare. The 'normies', if you will, consciously or subconsciously choose Safety before and above Freedom. So, to the masses of humanity, the ideal of Free-Will is purged.

Why do you think this? What's your source? Most sources I find say the opposite, that most people believe in free will.

Prepare for a psychic claim and the use of either of the following adverbs: 'actually' or 'really.' Generally in a negative sentence.
I don't think you understand that free will, for some people, means freedom from the need to justify. Even reason itself is a kind of LGBTQ gulag.

I KNOW that 'this one' does NOT YET EVEN KNOW that 'free will' does NOT even mean NOR refer to what 'it' thinks or BELIEVES the word 'free will' does.

[Wizard22]

So, to 'you', the words 'free will', when used together, mean or refer to 'what', EXACTLY, "wizard22"?

Or, if the phrase or term 'free will' does NOT mean NOR refer to; the ability to CHOOSE, to 'you', then this would explain WHY 'you' do NOT have a PERFECTLY UNIFIED FITTED TOGETHER Picture, YET.

What an individual or society is free from (constraint), or free to (do).

Freedom from is Negative Freedom.
Freedom to is Positive Freedom.

Most of these 'Determinists', IWP, refer only to Negative Freedom in their flawed and false analysis of Free-Will.

[Age]

So, to 'you', the words 'free will', when used together, mean or refer to 'what', EXACTLY, "wizard22"?

Or, if the phrase or term 'free will' does NOT mean NOR refer to; the ability to CHOOSE, to 'you', then this would explain WHY 'you' do NOT have a PERFECTLY UNIFIED FITTED TOGETHER Picture, YET.

What an individual or society is free from (constraint), or free to (do).

Freedom from is Negative Freedom.
Freedom to is Positive Freedom.

Most of these 'Determinists', IWP, refer only to Negative Freedom in their flawed and false analysis of Free-Will.

So, what IS 'free will', to you, in a non 'flawed' and 'true' analysis, EXACTLY?

OBVIOUSLY, 'free will' EXISTS and FITS, PERFECTLY, WITH and IN THE 'determined' 'world' AND 'Life', Itself. Or, do 'you' BELIEVE otherwise "wizard22"?

[Wizard22]

So, what IS 'free will', to you, in a non 'flawed' and 'true' analysis, EXACTLY?

OBVIOUSLY, 'free will' EXISTS and FITS, PERFECTLY, WITH and IN THE 'determined' 'world' AND 'Life', Itself. Or, do 'you' BELIEVE otherwise "wizard22"?

Free-Will is NOT determined. How can it be, when Choice relies on the Future, what is both undetermined and unknown?

[Age]

So, what IS 'free will', to you, in a non 'flawed' and 'true' analysis, EXACTLY?

OBVIOUSLY, 'free will' EXISTS and FITS, PERFECTLY, WITH and IN THE 'determined' 'world' AND 'Life', Itself. Or, do 'you' BELIEVE otherwise "wizard22"?

Free-Will is NOT determined.

Did absolutely ANY one EVER SAY 'it' IS?

I CERTAINLY DO NOT YET KNOW OF ANY one.

How can it be, when Choice relies on the Future, what is both undetermined and unknown?

Considering that I am, NOT YET anyway, AWARE of ANY one SAYING that 'free-will' IS 'determined', what 'you' SAY here is moot in regards to your above claim, well to me anyway.

By the way, 'choice' could NOT rely on what has NOT YET HAPPENED, could 'it'?

To me, 'choice' relies on just being ABLE TO 'choose', and HAVING MORE than just one 'thing' to CHOOSE FROM. Also, to me, 'choices' CREATE 'the future'.

And, well to me, 'the future' can be 'determined' AND 'known'. IF ANY one WAS Truly INTERESTED, to KNOW.

[Wizard22]

Yes, Choice does require what has not happened yet.

Choice is pointed 'forward', into the future, into the unknown.

That is why Choice is necessary. Humans, mammals, animals, must make Choices in order to survive their environment (Nature).

Once survival is relatively secure, then those 'Choices' become more complex: Evolution, Intelligence, Philosophy, Culture, Religion.

[Age]

Yes, Choice does require what has not happened yet.

Choice is pointed 'forward', into the future, into the unknown.

That is why Choice is necessary. Humans, mammals, animals, must make Choices in order to survive their environment (Nature).

Once survival is relatively secure, then those 'Choices' become more complex: Evolution, Intelligence, Philosophy, Culture, Religion.

Some dogs and cats lives are relatively VERY secure, however 'their' 'choices' have NOT become more 'complex' AT ALL. So, it does NOT necessarily follow that once survival is relatively secure, then ANY 'choices' AT ALL will become so-called 'complex'.

[Wizard22]

Some dogs and cats lives are relatively VERY secure, however 'their' 'choices' have NOT become more 'complex' AT ALL. So, it does NOT necessarily follow that once survival is relatively secure, then ANY 'choices' AT ALL will become so-called 'complex'.

Domesticated cats still have complex choices in choosing which humans and environments to trust. They can still be killed by rabid dogs, wild animals in rural areas, malicious humans, cars driving down the street, etc.

A wild lion on the African Savannah has different problems. But they're all still problems requiring Choice from the cats.

[Age]

Some dogs and cats lives are relatively VERY secure, however 'their' 'choices' have NOT become more 'complex' AT ALL. So, it does NOT necessarily follow that once survival is relatively secure, then ANY 'choices' AT ALL will become so-called 'complex'.

Domesticated cats still have complex choices in choosing which humans and environments to trust. They can still be killed by rabid dogs, wild animals in rural areas, malicious humans, cars driving down the street, etc.

A wild lion on the African Savannah has different problems. But they're all still problems requiring Choice from the cats.

you appear to have NOT UNDERSTOOD AT ALL what I was just SAYING and POINTING OUT here.