Freeing of the Will

[Wizard22]

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

Why unnecessarily stunt and retard the Human Spirit? Why clip our wings? Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

Why measure Humanity from the base, from the Animal, instead of from the Apex? Why choose lowly Gods, instead of high Ones?



If your greatest Ideal in life is to remain Human, rolling around in the mud like a pig, then how is Human any different than an Animal?

Is it not a Free-Will, a Spirit of Man, that truly separates Him from the mud, the dirt, the worms, the insects?

Man has Wings greater than any bird, if you let Him. So why do you pull Him down?

[Wizard22]

In all my years of arguments against Determinists, one admission sticks out to me the most:

Determinists tell me that "if the Will were free then..." evil would ensue. People would steal, rape, and murder, in a massive chaos. Statues would be torn down. Anarchy and violence would reign supreme. People would inflict all manner of harm and torture upon one another. The world's worst nightmares would be realized.

...so how is that any different than Now?

The Determinists don't seem to realize, in their Fear, that that Fear already exists. The world is already this way. Men already have Free-Will, but perhaps only a small minority of them. So how then can you set apart and distinguish those who are Free from those who are not? Would it then be "only Evil" that marks which men are Free, and only men who did Evil, would be free? Or isn't it more obvious, that men who are Free have a Choice between good and evil that the rest do not. And this choice will not be understood by those who are ruled by Good or Evil, separately, and are forced to commit as such.

Men are commanded by state and society, to commit acts of Good.
Men are commanded by state and society, to commit acts of Evil.
But in neither case are men Free to choose otherwise, according to the State.

So what makes men Free or not?

[Harbal]

Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

Because you can't ascend higher than you can possibly ascend.

[Wizard22]

Because you can't ascend higher than you can possibly ascend.

How do you know what's possible?

[Age]

In all my years of arguments against Determinists, one admission sticks out to me the most:

Determinists tell me that "if the Will were free then..." evil would ensue. People would steal, rape, and murder, in a massive chaos. Statues would be torn down. Anarchy and violence would reign supreme. People would inflict all manner of harm and torture upon one another. The world's worst nightmares would be realized.

...so how is that any different than Now?

The Determinists don't seem to realize, in their Fear, that that Fear already exists. The world is already this way. Men already have Free-Will, but perhaps only a small minority of them. So how then can you set apart and distinguish those who are Free from those who are not? Would it then be "only Evil" that marks which men are Free, and only men who did Evil, would be free? Or isn't it more obvious, that men who are Free have a Choice between good and evil that the rest do not. And this choice will not be understood by those who are ruled by Good or Evil, separately, and are forced to commit as such.

Men are commanded by state and society, to commit acts of Good.
Men are commanded by state and society, to commit acts of Evil.
But in neither case are men Free to choose otherwise, according to the State.

So what makes men Free or not?

WHY does ANY one PRESUME there is an 'or' here?

The Truth IS human beings ARE 'free', AS WELL AS, EQUALLY, 'determined' (or 'predetermined').

[Harbal]

Because you can't ascend higher than you can possibly ascend.

How do you know what's possible?

I don't, but you are the one who set the bounds of possibility:

Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

[Agent Smith]

He shot from the hip ... she shot using the sight ... er ... bullseye!! bullseye!! Tom stepped on a tack, business end up, howled and hopped in pain, knocked over the jug of OJ which fell on the gun ... bang! ... bullseye!

[Wizard22]

WHY does ANY one PRESUME there is an 'or' here?

The Truth IS human beings ARE 'free', AS WELL AS, EQUALLY, 'determined' (or 'predetermined').

Some are. But most are not. Most humans are not free.

What do you mean "equally determined"?

[Wizard22]

I don't, but you are the one who set the bounds of possibility:

Was it me...or you? Did I not state to break bounds of possibility? That's what I suggest be done.

[Iwannaplato]

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

So, people's wills are not free until you choose to free them. Again, wrong subforum. You're not talking about the free will discussed in Metaphysics.

Why unnecessarily stunt and retard the Human Spirit? Why clip our wings? Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

Can you give some examples of who is clipping wings and how? Also where are you soaring these days and what kind of soaring do you want to do that no one has done higher? Some examples.

[Wizard22]

So, people's wills are not free until you choose to free them.

Quote me where I said this.

Again, wrong subforum. You're not talking about the free will discussed in Metaphysics.

You are welcome to explain the difference anytime.

Can you give some examples of who is clipping wings and how? Also where are you soaring these days and what kind of soaring do you want to do that no one has done higher? Some examples.

Yes, you are an example. Why do you doubt what you have no reason to doubt?

Consider what 'freedom' looks like to you. Are you different than the other Determinists? Are you primarily concerned about Evil, morality, that a free people and society would necessarily result in chaos and anarchy?

[Iwannaplato]

So, people's wills are not free until you choose to free them.

Quote me where I said this.

I certainly could have misunderstood and I was clearly working from the quote I, well, quoted.

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will,

The free something, is to release it from captivity. It's not free and you free it. Or that's what I think.
I assumed, given you views on freedom that you can choose to free it.

But, please, let me know what you meant.

You are welcome to explain the difference anytime.

No, I got tired. It seemed you lacked interest. And you are always demanding people prove it to you. But you don't even seem to argue for things, let alone demonstrate them, let alone prove them. So, I'm afraid that seems like a dead end to me.

Can you give some examples of who is clipping wings and how? Also where are you soaring these days and what kind of soaring do you want to do that no one has done higher? Some examples.

Yes, you are an example. Why do you doubt what you have no reason to doubt?

How have I clipped my wings? Please be specific or mention some thing about my life.

There's no example of soaring: For example, how are you soaring in a way I am not? How do you soar in a way that no one has before

Consider what 'freedom' looks like to you. Are you different than the other Determinists?

I'm not a determinist.

Are you primarily concerned about Evil, morality, that a free people and society would necessarily result in chaos and anarchy?

No, that doesn't describe me well at all. I am not a moral realist, as a start. And I am a huge fan of freedom, both on the political and personal levels.

What do you do that shows how free you are ?

Hallucinate stuff about other people?

I guess I've done that on occasion, but it's not a source of pride.

[Wizard22]

I certainly could have misunderstood and I was clearly working from the quote I, well, quoted.

My point was that people settle for much lower than ideals professed to children from the 'educators' of society who "want best" for children. Somewhere along the way, most people 'settle' for lives of discontent, resulting in Cynicism. Or you could call it, "Determinism".

How is this me "choosing for them"? I asked you the question as to how this happens exactly.

The free something, is to release it from captivity. It's not free and you free it. Or that's what I think.
I assumed, given you views on freedom that you can choose to free it.

But, please, let me know what you meant.

There is freedom and constraint of the body.
There is freedom and constraint of the mind.

The latter applies to a prisoner in a jail cell who never thinks to press open the door, to realize it's always been unlocked.
The mental prison trumps the physical prison.

No, I got tired. It seemed you lacked interest. And you are always demanding people prove it to you. But you don't even seem to argue for things, let alone demonstrate them, let alone prove them. So, I'm afraid that seems like a dead end to me.

Then consider my demonstrations here. If you ignore these, then so be it.

How have I clipped my wings? Please be specific or mention some thing about my life.

There's no example of soaring: For example, how are you soaring in a way I am not? How do you soar in a way that no one has before

Because you suggested the constraint first.
My point is that everybody has a base reference for freedom corresponding to will.
What you know of 'freedom', is already what you've questioned or doubted.
I don't need to know the story book of your life, to know the questions you posed to me first and foremost.

How much can you tell about a person by their look, or by their voice?
Or by their questions and literacy? This is our format.

I'm not a determinist.

We shall see.

No, that doesn't describe me well at all. I am not a moral realist, as a start. And I am a huge fan of freedom, both on the political and personal levels.

What do you do that shows how free you are ?

Hallucinate stuff about other people?

I guess I've done that on occasion, but it's not a source of pride.

Yes, call it a Hallucination if you like. I've only just begun.

[Wizard22]

I'll just move ahead on this point.

There is something 'hopeful' about children and adolescence where adults apply to the younger and upcoming generations, their Hopes, and Fears, that they themselves failed at. The hope is that children succeed where the current or previous generations failed. Because youthfulness is innocent and giddy with energy, their imaginations are mostly unconstrained. This differs from society to society, where very strict, rigid, and disciplined (usually religious fundamentalists) have specific harsh rules to enforce—sometimes for good reason, sometimes for bad reason. For example, a chaotic society does not have luxury of imaginations and Hope. It must teach its children warfare, personal defense, distrust, and how to fight to stave off starvation. Austere environments do not allow for the same type of hope and innocence, romantic idealism, that an abundant society offers.

So there are many factors already at play here. This can be simplified to Class. The higher/wealthier classes in society are Abundant. The lower/poorer classes in society are Austere. So the romantic idealism of the upper class is significantly greater than that of the lower classes. Western society calls this 'Privilege', specifically "White Privilege".

The presumption here is that white, wealthy families, are Freest of all.


Maybe this is true, maybe not, but the focal point is on how Ideals are passed from the previous generation to the current—and how a child would hypothetically grow to become Free within or without the parameters ascribed to it by the previous generation.

[Sculptor]

Why is so much of Humanity afraid of Freeing their Will, and instead choose comforts, security, habit, the known, over all the Greater desires and ideas that they could possibly have?

Oh dear. You seem to have opened your thread with a massive false dichotmy.
Those that chose "conforts, security, and the habit of the known" are the ones most freely expressing their will.
They have chosen to reject the ball and chain, the opinions of society and have instead decided to reject the empty struggle and the tread mill of the rat race. Having achived comfort and security is the greatest desire fulfilled.

Why unnecessarily stunt and retard the Human Spirit? Why clip our wings? Why not soar higher than anybody has possibly ascended, before?

Are you talking about yourself?
It is exactly through comfort and security that the human spirit can soar. The Greek called work "ascholia", that is to say not-learning. Scholia was much the same as leisure. You have to have comfort, to be free of the slog an efforts of life to truly investigte your own meanings.

Why measure Humanity from the base, from the Animal, instead of from the Apex? Why choose lowly Gods, instead of high Ones?

I think you are expressing a personal problem here.

If your greatest Ideal in life is to remain Human, rolling around in the mud like a pig, then how is Human any different than an Animal?

Is it not a Free-Will, a Spirit of Man, that truly separates Him from the mud, the dirt, the worms, the insects?

Man has Wings greater than any bird, if you let Him. So why do you pull Him down?

Speak for yourself.