An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
Evolution, God made or an accident
Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
Valuable for who and/or what?
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
Whatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 amAn imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.
So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.
When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
Okay, enough of this nonsense.
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
An imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 amAn imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
That’s what I mean, bro.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:37 pmAn imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 amAn imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
I don't understand. No doctor is perfect, but I find occasional use for them. My brain isn't perfect but it's a marvel. And so on.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:36 pmThat’s what I mean, bro.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:37 pmAn imperfect doctor can exist, but how valuable would that be?commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am
An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
An imperfect antibiotic, boat, solar system, cook, job, water source, shelter, superpower, brain, body.........
Superman isn't perfect - kryptonite - but hey if he was around I'd consider it pretty darn potentially useful.
A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful.
Things that aren't perfect can't be useful? Then there's no useful tool I've ever used.
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
Well said.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:15 amWhatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 amAn imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.
So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.
When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.
And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.
Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
1. Children ONLY REALLY 'suffer' BECAUSE OF adult human beings, ONLY. (Now A DISCUSSION NEEDS to take place, FIRST, for 'this' to be Truly FULLY UNDERSTOOD).commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pmAge wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 11:27 pmIf some 'thing' is SUPPOSEDLY so-called 'supernatural', when the 'supernatural' word is REFERRING TO some 'thing' that is outside of, above, beyond, or NOT a part of 'Nature' nor the 'Natural', then 'that thing' OBVIOUSLY can NOT exist', and therefore does NOT exist.commonsense wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:53 pm
If God must be perfect, and not merely supernatural, there can be no God.
However, if some 'thing' IS so-called 'perfect', then 'this thing' could exist, and, in fact, ACTUALLY DOES EXIST.
But, OBVIOUSLY, NOT ALL people, in the days when this was being written BELIEVED 'this', NOR ACCEPTED 'this'. AGAIN, BECAUSE of 'their' PRE-EXISTING BELIEFS, and PRESUMPTIONS.
There cannot be a perfect God, because if God were perfect, children would not suffer. Humans would live in Utopia.
2. Humans, ONCE, DID live in Utopia, AND, ONCE AGAIN, there WILL BE Utopia. Just AT the 'current moment', when this is being written, 'you', human beings, are in an evolving transitioning stage
But children do NOT ACTUALLY 'suffer', OF COURSE, outside of 'the way' that 'you', adult human beings, CAUSE 'their' and "other's" 'suffering'. Which WAS NECESSARY FOR the Utopia that IS about TO COME, to 'you', people, in the days when this WAS being written. (But AGAIN, for 'this' to be FULLY UNDERSTOOD A DISCUSSION NEEDS TO TAKE PLACE, FIRST).commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm But children do suffer, and humans do not live in Utopia.
Therefore, IF God exists, God is not perfect.[/quote]
So, following 'this logic', if adult human beings CHANGE 'their ways', which CREATES or CAUSED A Utopia, where children are NOT 'suffering', then IF God exists, then 'It' IS PERFECT, right?
But HOW, EXACTLY, God IS PERFECT, and OMNIPOTENT, 'you' are NOT YET AWARE OF, because A DISCUSSION HAS NOT YET TAKEN PLACE.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm Furthermore, if God is not perfect, he is not omnipotent, but rather only nearly omnipotent,
'you', OBVIOUSLY, have NOT YET COME-TO and thus NOT YET ARRIVED AT the FULL and True UNDERSTANDING here.But 'this' is JUST BECAUSE 'you' are YET to have. FULL and Truly OPEN DISCUSSION, YET.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm In the Torah it is written that God commands his followers to worship him on every Sabbath. But if God were imperfect, he might rather suggest that his followers worship him on three out of four Sabbaths, thus diluting his commandments.
Okay.commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm This weakened God would barely be worthy of being called God.
BUT, FOLLOWING ON FROM 'your logic' here IF children are NOT 'suffering' and are living IN Utopia, then God would be PERFECT, that is; IF 'It' even exists, correct?commonsense wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:03 pm So, there can be no perfect God and an imperfect God would be a weakened, vulnerable God.
Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
It sounds like this:Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:54 pm ... A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful...
If something contributed to my existence, then it must have made sense, whatever it was.
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
So, imperfect = worthless.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:08 pm Well said.
And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.
What do you find of value in your life?
Any people?
Any things?
Any education?
Any relationship?
Any place?
Last edited by Iwannaplato on Tue Dec 26, 2023 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
I'm not sure what the first 'it' refers to.nemos wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:29 pmIt sounds like this:Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 8:54 pm ... A deity that made some mistakes but had made the universe and so no. Hey, could be pretty useful...
If something contributed to my existence, then it must have made sense, whatever it was.
Anyway, I'm not sure if you're agreeing or disagreeing or something else.
Is there a way you can rephrase this?
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Re: Evolution, God made or an accident
Yes, if imperfect it could be an inferior, cheapskate God, worthless but not totally worthless in the eyes of the believers.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:08 pmWell said.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:15 amWhatever exists as real by default, is true, factual and objective is conditioned upon a specific human based [intersubjective] FSK [model] of which the scientific FSK is the most real and objective.commonsense wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 12:06 am
An imperfect God can exist, but how valuable would that be?
As such, the claim God exists as real must be verifiable and justifiable within the scientific FSK, which mean bringing forth the evidences to be verified and justified by Science.
Generally God is claimed to exists based on faith [belief without any possibility of proof].
Thus it is impossible for God to exists as real, i.e. scientifically real.
So, whether God [based on faith] is claimed to be perfect or imperfect, it cannot be real in the most real sense like scientific realities, e.g. the Sun exists as real at present.
When theists claimed their God is absolutely perfect which is the ultimate claim [especially the Abrahamic religions], that claim of absolute perfection evidently reinforces the impossibility for God to exists as real.
And if there are any theists who accept an imperfect God by faith, they are worshiping a worthless God.
There are many gods in polytheism that are recognized as imperfect [with some worth]. In many cases, these inferior gods are ruled by an ultimate perfect God, e.g. Brahman in Hinduism.
A theist who claims his God is imperfect which will then be inferior to another theist who claim his God is absolutely perfect, i.e. "a being than which no greater can be conceived" giving him greater confidence and a sense of superiority.
In this sense a theist with a perfect God can pray to his God to summon the inferior God to kiss its ass or do other derogatory vulgar acts or even kill the inferior God.
It is so rational and easy for any theists to claim the God is absolutely perfect so no other God can dominate their absolutely perfect God, there is nothing to stop him for doing so.
And this is why the majority of theists claim their God is absolutely perfect or omni-perfect.
This is in line with the one-up instinct that is so common in children's playground and with many adults as well.