Is morality objective or subjective?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
A miracle is supposed to be a physical event with a non-physical cause. So, first, there has to be evidence that the event occurred. And our ancestors told countless stories about such events, which nobody rational counts as evidence - unless they're stories about my-team's-god, in which case rationality is out the window.
But anyway, how can a non-physical cause have a physical effect? Or how can a physical effect be evidence for a non-physical cause? What is the causal mechanism? Has anyone come across a rational, plausible answer? Or are we stuck with the infantile credulity of 'it was magic'?
But anyway, how can a non-physical cause have a physical effect? Or how can a physical effect be evidence for a non-physical cause? What is the causal mechanism? Has anyone come across a rational, plausible answer? Or are we stuck with the infantile credulity of 'it was magic'?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
What causes philosophy?Peter Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:52 am A miracle is supposed to be a physical event with a non-physical cause. So, first, there has to be evidence that the event occurred. And our ancestors told countless stories about such events, which nobody rational counts as evidence - unless they're stories about my-team's-god, in which case rationality is out the window.
But anyway, how can a non-physical cause have a physical effect? Or how can a physical effect be evidence for a non-physical cause? What is the causal mechanism? Has anyone come across a rational, plausible answer? Or are we stuck with the infantile credulity of 'it was magic'?
Is philosophy physical?
What causes morality?
Is morality physical?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
You've often mentioned the ''causeless cause'' of all that is. Put another way ''The infinite reality of existence'' is this immediate causeless cause, which is self-defining infinity itself.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:17 am
So miracles don't "work," if by "work" we mean "permanently prevent all the skeptics from scoffing." But that's hardly surprising.
So there's no need to superimpose the absurd notion of 'relationship' as there is nothing anywhere or any other place outside of infinity itself that could be in relationship to it... the very idea is absurd.
Truth is, the only relationship happening here, is with itself, meaning, a reflection back on itself, the projector and the film being one and the same reality. And that all ''causes'' are in fact fictional stories or dream appearances within the all, the everything, the no thing, the not-a-thing, the nothingness, and wait for it.....the ultimate CAUSELESS.
You IC would simply scoff and be skeptical about such a truth, and thus, the mirror does a 180 degree U turn in this ever spinning two way revolving mirror story of infinity appearing in finite ways, infinitely for eternity, forever uncaused causes.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I don't need to check back; it's as if you can't help yourself:Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:52 pmI don't, actually. Check back, and you'll see.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:14 pmWhat seems inconsistent to me is that you will more readily appeal to the character of atheists, or rather your ideologically motivated Atheists, than to people such as you.
These 'proud', 'angry', 'rebellious' men are not your ideological "Atheists"; they are people who, like you, think that religions are false; they just happen to apply it to one more religion than you.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:52 pmWell, Atheists...like Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, Nietzsche...the proud ones, the ones who trumpet their Atheism, exhibit their own anger and rebelliion against God, and in fact, often declare it as a badge of honour.
Nonsense. A reasonable atheist could reasonably ask whether morality is objective because God says it, or God says it because it is objective. I'm not a mind reader, but based on your previous comments, I'm confident your response to that will be that God's nature is supreme goodness.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 2:03 am...IF God exists, then objective morality is not at all hard to understand; and even a reasonable Atheist would indeed have to concede that.
Well, according to your objective morality, the vast majority of human beings will spend eternity being tortured, but that is the price of freedom. It is hard to imagine a subjective morality that could be worse.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:52 pmJust as I would concede, quite freely, that IF God did not exist, then there would be no objective morality (and, we might add, subjective morality would be a mere imagining). That's all totally fair.
Well again that's projection. You simply refuse the evidence of human evolution. There are thousands of examples of fossils consistent with human evolution, which you ignore in favour of one example of fraud and a few examples of mis-identification.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Sep 08, 2023 3:38 pmThe Theist says, "There's evidence," and the Atheist says, "There's none." And the Theist cannot beat the Atheist's strategy, because how can you argue with somebody who simply refuses the evidence before him?
Whatever mathematics proves, it only applies to mathematical proofs. The constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment. The fact that numbers go on forever proves nothing about the universe.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:52 pm...and one that's been justified by the previous debate. For example, the impossibility of an actual regress of causes is an absolute slam-dunk mathematical proof of a First Cause of some kind. What are you to make of people who don't accept the truth of mathematics?
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Eeeeh, you just can't stop lying, can you?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 am The constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
Which experiment discovered the speed of light from all reference frames?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Don't care how you do it for any reference frame.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:26 pmTwo things:
How do we know about the speed of light in any reference frame?
However you do it - I'd like to know how you get form any to all reference frames.
Soooo... the speed of light is derived from equations, and not empirically?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:26 pm How were the constants that Maxwell plugged into his equations established?
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 am Whatever mathematics proves, it only applies to mathematical proofs.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I don't think there is any valid argument for the existence of God. If you think there is any just bring it in.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:28 pmWell, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.bahman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:35 pmAs I said it is not about whether I like your argument or not.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:25 pm So now it IS about you: since you don't like whatever I suggest, then it's about what you would accept as proof. Which, it seems, is "nothing, ever."
If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.
So again, what will you accept?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
As I said:Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:36 pmDon't care how you do it for any reference frame.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:26 pmTwo things:
How do we know about the speed of light in any reference frame?
However you do it - I'd like to know how you get form any to all reference frames.
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amThe constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
Well, you derive predictions from equations, but:Skepdick wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:36 pmSoooo... the speed of light is derived from equations, and not empirically?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 12:26 pmHow were the constants that Maxwell plugged into his equations established?
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amThe constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
That's right, because:Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amWhatever mathematics proves, it only applies to mathematical proofs.
Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amThe constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
That would be true if the act of measuring/quantifying constants was non-mathematical.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amThe constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_space
It's so peculiar that you don't recognize the "/" symbol in all the SI units of measurements...
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
IC strongest argument [.. i guess] is this;bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:41 pmI don't think there is any valid argument for the existence of God. If you think there is any just bring it in.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:28 pmWell, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.
If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.
So again, what will you accept?
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writing ... l-argument
and note this;
Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument Debunked
viewtopic.php?p=683974#p683974
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Well done for knowing that counting is mathematical.Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 6:32 amThat would be true if the act of measuring/quantifying constants was non-mathematical.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 11:24 amThe constants the govern the universe are not determined mathematically, the are discovered by experiment.
Do tell us what any of that has to do with determining constants.Skepdick wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 6:32 amhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_space
You're right, I don't. You show me, Skepdick.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
You mean "true," not "valid' in the logical sense, I'm sure. There are logically "valid" arguments for all kinds of things. But let that be.
If there is no test you will accept for the existence of God, the reason that you have found no evidence for God is that you do not allow for any. In which case, what evidence there is will remain permanently invisible to you, and nobody can do anything about that...except maybe God Himself.
So I guess that's the end of that road.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
And, of course, in his response, IC left out the second sentence when he quoted you. The onus seems to be a hot potato.bahman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 1:41 pmI don't think there is any valid argument for the existence of God. If you think there is any just bring it in.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:28 pmWell, yes; that's what you keep saying. But also, that's wrong. It's very much about whether or not there's ANYTHING you would EVER accept as proof of God's existence.
If there's not, then the game is over. And the reason you've lost it is not for lack of evidence, but for lack of anything you would ever agree to accept.
So again, what will you accept?
I'd ask for a sound argument, by the way, not merely a valid one.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
And where is your argument?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sun Dec 31, 2023 2:53 pmYou mean "true," not "valid' in the logical sense, I'm sure. There are logically "valid" arguments for all kinds of things. But let that be.
If there is no test you will accept for the existence of God, the reason that you have found no evidence for God is that you do not allow for any. In which case, what evidence there is will remain permanently invisible to you, and nobody can do anything about that...except maybe God Himself.
So I guess that's the end of that road.