Not really. Moral subjectivism is a delusion the West is particularly fond of. In the rest of the world, people tend to favour objectivism of one kind or another. We often don't realize how odd we, in the West, are, on a geographical and historical scale.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:11 pmIt seems everyone except you is under some sort of delusion.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 pmIf somebody wants to live under delusions that are clearly not even consistent on their own terms, they can do that.
My ideas about transgenderism
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Well nobody can say you haven't done your bit in trying to set us all straight.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:27 pmNot really. Moral subjectivism is a delusion the West is particularly fond of. In the rest of the world, people tend to favour objectivism of one kind or another. We often don't realize how odd we, in the West, are, on a geographical and historical scale.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:11 pmIt seems everyone except you is under some sort of delusion.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:48 pm
If somebody wants to live under delusions that are clearly not even consistent on their own terms, they can do that.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Hey, we're supposed to be here for a philosophical discussion and debate, are we not? If we can't do that without getting thin-skinned, then what are we doing? If you and I are right about various things, should we not try to say so, and explain why, and defend our positions? And if we're wrong, should we not want to hear the opposing views, consider them, and find out?Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:05 amWell nobody can say you haven't done your bit in trying to set us all straight.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:27 pmNot really. Moral subjectivism is a delusion the West is particularly fond of. In the rest of the world, people tend to favour objectivism of one kind or another. We often don't realize how odd we, in the West, are, on a geographical and historical scale.
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
I suppose we are here for our various reasons, and, presumably, those of us who keep coming back are getting what we want from being here.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:25 amHey, we're supposed to be here for a philosophical discussion and debate, are we not? If we can't do that without getting thin-skinned, then what are we doing? If you and I are right about various things, should we not try to say so, and explain why, and defend our positions? And if we're wrong, should we not want to hear the opposing views, consider them, and find out?Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:05 amWell nobody can say you haven't done your bit in trying to set us all straight.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:27 pm
Not really. Moral subjectivism is a delusion the West is particularly fond of. In the rest of the world, people tend to favour objectivism of one kind or another. We often don't realize how odd we, in the West, are, on a geographical and historical scale.
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
There is no moral/ethical argument whatsoever about a ''person'' feeling all their life that they have been living in the wrong body. Where there has been a mental state of feeling that their personal and private way of thinking is of a different gender to their actual body, whether they be male or female, their physical body appearance is simply not matching up with their mental feeling of who they really see them self as.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:28 pm So you're showing up not to make a moral/ethical argument about this, but just to tell everybody they have no right to make a moral/ethical argument about it?
And you're imagining that's a moral argument?
That feeling is something that only the direct 'feeler' will be privy to. And will be completely outside the realm of anyone else's judgement. By simply bringing morals and ethics into this belongs soley to the interference of the religious cults.
In reality, what one feels inside their mind is unique to the ''person'' in question, and is simply no one else's business to even try and refute or deny them their own personal direct feeling about who they are.
A body part surgeon's job is simply a business, it's their job to offer a service to the customer who seeks it out. This make me a specific gender phenomena has got absolutely nothing to do with your urge to impose on it as having moral and ethical implications.
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Well put.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 12:15 pmThere is no moral/ethical argument whatsoever about a ''person'' feeling all their life that they have been living in the wrong body. Where there has been a mental state of feeling that their personal and private way of thinking is of a different gender to their actual body, whether they be male or female, their physical body appearance is simply not matching up with their mental feeling of who they really see them self as.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:28 pm So you're showing up not to make a moral/ethical argument about this, but just to tell everybody they have no right to make a moral/ethical argument about it?
And you're imagining that's a moral argument?
That feeling is something that only the direct 'feeler' will be privy to. And will be completely outside the realm of anyone else's judgement. By simply bringing morals and ethics into this belongs soley to the interference of the religious cults.
In reality, what one feels inside their mind is unique to the ''person'' in question, and is simply no one else's business to even try and refute or deny them their own personal direct feeling about who they are.
A body part surgeon's job is simply a business, it's their job to offer a service to the customer who seeks it out. This make me a specific gender phenomena has got absolutely nothing to do with your urge to impose on it as having moral and ethical implications.
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Well put H
Gender dysphoria refers to a condition in which an individual experiences discomfort or distress due to a conflict between their biological sex and gender identity.
Adding to the problem of feeling different is another concern to consider...
One of the primary concerns with the term “gender dysphoria” is that it medicalizes the experience of being transgender.
By framing it as a mental health condition, there is a risk of implying that being transgender is abnormal or a disorder. This perspective overlooks the fact that gender identity exists on a spectrum and is a normal variation of human diversity.
___________
In other words, we just need to stop believing there is something mentally wrong with any one of us, when there isn't. The chemical make-up of each and every single one of us as an individual brain, is not anywhere near to being of the person's fault, nor is it the creation of the person to be who they are. A person did not create their brain or their mental capacity to think the way they do.
Now, who is going to hold up their hand and claim they can create a brain from scratch ?
Let them who claim they have created a brain be held to account or be to blame, otherwise, you know nothing, and there is nothing ethically or morally wrong with you.
For further information about this subject topic - Read...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
If there are no moral implications, why are you discussing it?
In point of fact, there are very serious moral, personal, social and practical implications. But if you don't realize that, what's the point in talking further?
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
There may be no moral implications in transgenderism itself, but there are moral implications in your outspoken condemnation of it, and it is legitimate for that to be pointed out.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:43 pmIf there are no moral implications, why are you discussing it?
In point of fact, there are very serious moral, personal, social and practical implications. But if you don't realize that, what's the point in talking further?
I agree that there are social implications with a moral aspect to them, but that is a separate issue.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
All of this is a lovely specimen of the thoroughly-propagandized mind at work. It's utter codswallop, including the graphic. But it's typical of our highly-indoctrinated age, a kind of orthodox "creed" of idiocy and denial of reality. It's really quite breathtakingly bad.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:37 pm Adding to the problem of feeling different is another concern to consider...One of the primary concerns with the term “gender dysphoria” is that it medicalizes the experience of being transgender.
By framing it as a mental health condition, there is a risk of implying that being transgender is abnormal or a disorder. This perspective overlooks the fact that gender identity exists on a spectrum and is a normal variation of human diversity.
Unfortunately, this idiocy is not actually funny. It's issuing in the butchering and poisoning of young children right now, while the indoctrinated world looks on and cheers.
God help us. We have a lot to answer for.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Would these be objective "moral implications," or do you just mean, "Harbal wants to think otherwise?"Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:54 pmThere may be no moral implications in transgenderism itself, but there are moral implications in your outspoken condemnation of it, and it is legitimate for that to be pointed out.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:43 pmIf there are no moral implications, why are you discussing it?
In point of fact, there are very serious moral, personal, social and practical implications. But if you don't realize that, what's the point in talking further?
How "separate?" It seems the same. And since you said above "there may be no moral implications" to it, how can you say, one sentence later, "there are social implications with a moral aspect to them?"I agree that there are social implications with a moral aspect to them, but that is a separate issue.
- Trajk Logik
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
You are confused.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:03 pmI am not qualified to comment on their treatment, so I won't, but you seem to think you are qualified.Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:19 pmIsn't that what I was pointing to - those qualified to deal with issue of anorexia do not affirm their patients' delusions? We're talking about distorted views of one's body whether it be their weight or their sexual identity. Why would we have different treatments for the same type of disease unless one group was made out to be victims by one side of the political spectrum and deserve special treatment.
Commenting on their treatment is different than deciding their treatment. We are all allowed to comment on their treatment given our right to speak freely. We are not qualified to decide their treatment.
We are also qualified to comment on how others with similar symptoms are treated by those that are qualified, which is what I was doing with my example of anorexia.
But you're qualified to place limits on their treatment when your rights are at risk? You can't have your cake and eat it too.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:40 pmTheir treatment is not our concern, and we have no business sticking our noses in. What is our concern is accommodating them in society without sacrificing our own rights.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:20 pmWell, the right outcome has to be based on truth. So deciding what the truth is, is the first step to making sure the right and truly compassionate treatment is what is advocated.
We are qualified to talk about treatments and to point out the hypocrisy of different treatments for a special class of people and special treatment transgenders receive as a result.
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
I mean that, when measured against Harbal's sense of morality, your behaviour falls short.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:58 pmWould these be objective "moral implications," or do you just mean, "Harbal wants to think otherwise?"Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:54 pmThere may be no moral implications in transgenderism itself, but there are moral implications in your outspoken condemnation of it, and it is legitimate for that to be pointed out.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:43 pm
If there are no moral implications, why are you discussing it?
In point of fact, there are very serious moral, personal, social and practical implications. But if you don't realize that, what's the point in talking further?
What a person feels about their sexual identity is not a moral issue, because it hurts no one except religious bigots and such.IC wrote:How "separate?" It seems the same. And since you said above "there may be no moral implications" to it, how can you say, one sentence later, "there are social implications with a moral aspect to them?"I agree that there are social implications with a moral aspect to them, but that is a separate issue.
Moral issues arise when a person who "identifies" as a different gender to their biological gender makes demands on society at the expense of other members of society.
Re: My ideas about transgenderism
Okay, if you think you are well enough informed to have an educated opinion, just ignore what I said.Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:01 pmYou are confused.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:03 pmI am not qualified to comment on their treatment, so I won't, but you seem to think you are qualified.Trajk Logik wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:19 pm
Isn't that what I was pointing to - those qualified to deal with issue of anorexia do not affirm their patients' delusions? We're talking about distorted views of one's body whether it be their weight or their sexual identity. Why would we have different treatments for the same type of disease unless one group was made out to be victims by one side of the political spectrum and deserve special treatment.
Commenting on their treatment is different than deciding their treatment. We are all allowed to comment on their treatment given our right to speak freely. We are not qualified to decide their treatment.
We are also qualified to comment on how others with similar symptoms are treated by those that are qualified, which is what I was doing with my example of anorexia.
But you're qualified to place limits on their treatment when your rights are at risk? You can't have your cake and eat it too.Harbal wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:40 pmTheir treatment is not our concern, and we have no business sticking our noses in. What is our concern is accommodating them in society without sacrificing our own rights.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 7:20 pm
Well, the right outcome has to be based on truth. So deciding what the truth is, is the first step to making sure the right and truly compassionate treatment is what is advocated.
We are qualified to talk about treatments and to point out the hypocrisy of different treatments for a special class of people and special treatment transgenders receive as a result.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: My ideas about transgenderism
What is the source of my duty to care what Harbal's momentary feeling is, since it's not objectively reflective of anything but his momentary feeling?Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 2:16 pmI mean that, when measured against Harbal's sense of morality, your behaviour falls short.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 1:58 pmWould these be objective "moral implications," or do you just mean, "Harbal wants to think otherwise?"
And if somebody feels differently about that, am I obligated to Harbal's feeling, or to his? Or to nobody's feeling?
Actually, it hurts a ton of people. It hurts the sufferer, obviously, in a multitude of ways, including depriving them permanently of sexual gratification and reproduction, and shortening their lifespans considerably by way of medical damage. But it also hurts everybody propagandized by gender ideology. It certainly harms society as a whole, economically, since it is expensive, and prospectively, since sterilized people cannot produce any more people. It hurts the detransitioner set (transers never want to acknowledge them at all). And it results in the butchery and sterilization of helpless, confused children -- particularly young women.What a person feels about their sexual identity is not a moral issue, because it hurts no one except religious bigots and such.IC wrote:How "separate?" It seems the same. And since you said above "there may be no moral implications" to it, how can you say, one sentence later, "there are social implications with a moral aspect to them?"I agree that there are social implications with a moral aspect to them, but that is a separate issue.
I'd call those "moral issues," wouldn't you? If you don't, then you should.