Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:36 amAbove ~110-115 IQ, most people are autonomous. Below ~110-115 IQ, most people are automatons, and will usually be controlled/manipulated by whoever is in power. They just can't abstract away from what is happening.
It seems impossible to raise the average IQ of humanity by 20-30 points in the near future, in order to make humanity autonomous, which would allow it to change its course. So by my calculations, by 2050 humanity will probably destroy itself, unless a miracle happens. I've accepted this grim reality, and its implications for philosophy.
So would you agree at IQ 120+ that people can hypothetically become 'Independent', at least mentally and with regard to thinking in general?
At least it becomes a Choice. You can choose a set of ideologies to believe in, which not to, and rationalize accordingly. But below 120, they cannot "Choose", and their beliefs are mostly imposed upon them? Any doubt or questions as to the integrity of the ideology, is self-repressed?
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:38 am
All IQ tests tell you is how good or bad someone is at IQ tests. Some people are really good at problem solving, but they come across as quite thick because they might not be very articulate. Humans are far too complex to have 'intelligence' put down to only one ability.
I used to think the same as you here. But recent literature makes compelling cases, points, and arguments as to the validity of intelligence at distinct IQ levels. There are logic circuits, for example, required by higher IQ levels. It means that IQ levels dictate the level of sophistication and complexity of ideas, for starters.
Just because humanity can't measure it very well, doesn't mean it's not there, and not in play. That's what IQ testing leads toward.
Personally I've always considered 'Intelligence' as a type of rule-breaker. Thus to be Intelligent, would be to reject and rebel against the very "IQ test". Intelligence wants to be de-limited, as you pointed out. It does not want constraints. Hence why Imagination is important and integral to Intelligence.
A perfectly normal person can do an IQ test and not get a single answer correct. Does this mean their IQ is zero? Ridiculous. I remember my grandmother, who was a brilliant writer and had a phenomenal memory when it came to quoting Shakespeare, did some stupid IQ test that the Church of Scientology used to have to try to lure people in. I don't think she could answer any of it and got her nose put out of joint because her 'IQ' result was average at best. Not 'stupid' enough to join their ridiculous cult though
Last edited by vegetariantaxidermy on Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:36 amAbove ~110-115 IQ, most people are autonomous. Below ~110-115 IQ, most people are automatons, and will usually be controlled/manipulated by whoever is in power. They just can't abstract away from what is happening.
It seems impossible to raise the average IQ of humanity by 20-30 points in the near future, in order to make humanity autonomous, which would allow it to change its course. So by my calculations, by 2050 humanity will probably destroy itself, unless a miracle happens. I've accepted this grim reality, and its implications for philosophy.
So would you agree at IQ 120+ that people can hypothetically become 'Independent', at least mentally and with regard to thinking in general?
At least it becomes a Choice. You can choose a set of ideologies to believe in, which not to, and rationalize accordingly. But below 120, they cannot "Choose", and their beliefs are mostly imposed upon them? Any doubt or questions as to the integrity of the ideology, is self-repressed?
Yes, below 110-115, there is usually no abstract "I" that would have the ability to choose. So others choose for them.
Personally I've always considered 'Intelligence' as a type of rule-breaker. Thus to be Intelligent, would be to reject and rebel against the very "IQ test". Intelligence wants to be de-limited, as you pointed out. It does not want constraints. Hence why Imagination is important and integral to Intelligence.
I don't know what intelligence is, but unconstrained imagination is the opposite of that.
You can easyly land up in the land of untractable dreams. Head in the clouds - feet high above ground.
Constraint-satisfaction is important part of getting stuff done.
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:43 amA perfectly normal person can do an IQ test and not get a single answer correct. Does this mean their IQ is zero? Ridiculous. I remember my grandmother, who was a brilliant writer and had a phenomenal memory when it came to quoting Shakespeare, did some stupid IQ test that the Church of Scientology used to have to try to lure people in. I don't think she could answer any of it and got her nose put out of joint because her 'IQ' result was average at best. Not 'stupid' enough to join their ridiculous cult though
I think their accuracy is questionable. But some of their results are convincing, as well. Demonstrating mathematic ability, for example, is at least impressive.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:46 amYes, below 110-115, there is usually no abstract "I" that would have the ability to choose. So others choose for them.
It is foolish to detach imagination from reality. Intelligence implies that some internal system 'restricts' the imagination when concerning real consequences of actions. The problem is, this is heavily manipulated by postmodern society. For example, Consumerism allows for commercialization and news media to pour vast amounts of dis- and mis-information into everybody's minds. It's too much. People are then unable to discern what is real, versus what is lie/false/untrue/inaccurate/misleading.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:46 amYes, below 110-115, there is usually no abstract "I" that would have the ability to choose. So others choose for them.
What are the moral implications of this?
We should continue to try to make the world a better place anyway, until the nuclear/biological/etc. holocaust hits.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:51 amWe should continue to try to make the world a better place anyway, until the nuclear/biological/etc. holocaust hits.
Indeed...and it means higher intelligence implies a moral Obligation that most people don't have, or are even aware of.
I'd refer to that as the type of "Moral Objectivism" being railed about around here...wouldn't ya say?
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:50 am
It is foolish to detach imagination from reality.
"Foolishness" is a good word for unconstrained imagination.
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:50 am
Intelligence implies that some internal system 'restricts' the imagination when concerning real consequences of actions.
Yeah. Physics. Time is a finite resource. Time to think. Time to execute. Time to reflect. Time to decide which problems are worth solving; and which are worth ignoring.
Every decision carries an opportunity cost.
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:50 am
The problem is, this is heavily manipulated by postmodern society. For example, Consumerism allows for commercialization and news media to pour vast amounts of dis- and mis-information into everybody's minds. It's too much. People are then unable to discern what is real, versus what is lie/false/untrue/inaccurate/misleading.
It's far easier to discern what's useful vs what's "true". For starters - is truth useful?
Most truth is absolutely useless and worthless. Most truth is a total waste of time.
Last edited by Skepdick on Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:51 amWe should continue to try to make the world a better place anyway, until the nuclear/biological/etc. holocaust hits.
Indeed...and it means higher intelligence implies a moral Obligation that most people don't have, or are even aware of.
I'd refer to that as the type of "Moral Objectivism" being railed about around here...wouldn't ya say?
I don't think it's an obligation, just a decision to remain HUMAN even in the face of inevitable demise. I'd say it's a kind of ultimate defiance
Atla wrote: ↑Sun Jun 11, 2023 11:51 amWe should continue to try to make the world a better place anyway, until the nuclear/biological/etc. holocaust hits.
Indeed...and it means higher intelligence implies a moral Obligation that most people don't have, or are even aware of.
I'd refer to that as the type of "Moral Objectivism" being railed about around here...wouldn't ya say?
Give it 10 more years, by then you'll be disappointed by humans so many times (especially by highly intelligent 100% amoral ones), that any strong sense of moral obligation will break.
