We are living in simulating reality
We are living in simulating reality
Our minds don't have direct access to reality, whether there is a reality or not, therefore we are living in simulating reality.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
What do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?mickthinks wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
The main thing I took my that response was that even if you are right that we cannot experience reality directly, there may still be a reality outside of us. And it would also be odd to call it a simulation, if there is nothing else. It would be a reality, just not one with external things. A form of idealism or phenomenalism.bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:05 pmWhat do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?mickthinks wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
I think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pmApart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:10 pmThe main thing I took my that response was that even if you are right that we cannot experience reality directly, there may still be a reality outside of us. And it would also be odd to call it a simulation, if there is nothing else. It would be a reality, just not one with external things. A form of idealism or phenomenalism.bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:05 pmWhat do you mean by "something which is less than reality"?mickthinks wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:01 pm Your conclusion doesn't follow. We have no access to reality. It follows that we experience and are conscious of something which is less than reality. But that "something less" isn't a simulation of the complete reality.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
1. There are NO such things as "our" 'minds'. When, and IF, 'you' ever ALSO LEARN and UNDERSTAND WHO the 'I' is, then 'you' will ALSO SEE and UNDERSTAND how "our minds" is a complete MISNOMER.
2. The body DIRECTLY experiences 'things'. IF ANY one wants to CLAIM, "But what is experienced could just be in a simulation", then that is fine. However, that could NOT refute that no matter how many of these supposed simulations could be existing they ALL HAVE TO be existing within A REALITY.
3. Therefore, there IS A REALITY, which we are ALL living IN.
Now, IF ANY one wants to CLAIM that 'they' are living IN a simulation, then evidence or proof do they have for THIS CLAIM?
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
You are starting with an irrational unjustified claim, an assumption of dualism, i.e.
- Property dualism, a view in the philosophy of mind and metaphysics which holds that, although the world is composed of just one kind of substance—the physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties
Epistemological dualism, the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
OTOH, it would be more realistic to determine [verify and justify within a FSK] what is 'real' based on experience and empirical evidence of emergences supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
At present the most reliable FSK to establish what is real [fact, truth, reality] is the scientific FSK-model.
Despite scientific facts are the most credible [albeit at best are polished conjectures] and to avoid Scientism, we must nevertheless subject those facts to further philosophical reasonings and scrutiny.
On this basis of reality, we must at all costs avoid the proclivities to harbor and ignore the philosophical realists urge to insist there is still something real out there independent of mind. Such ideas are a non-starter.
As such, we must adopt the view that the very realistic reality we have is that justifiable and verifiable reality from empirical evidence and supported by philosophical reasonings.
But the point is what is real in this case rest on a continuum of reality which stretch from what is highly real [90/100] to the extreme of a hallucination [real like mirage or those experienced by schizophrenics, 20/100, to a highly speculated simulated reality by highly evolved beings from light years away 1/100.
Note the contrast of my explanation of possible simulated reality [1/100] to your ASSUMPTION of a non-starter-impossible-to-be-real hypothesis.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
If other minds generate qualia what we experience and qualia are experienced and generated by the mind, the it sure sounds like collaboration is possible. And if there are other minds, they aren't simulated. And I am not simulated. Not in any sense that could contrast these minds with reality. As in, it's not reality it's a simulation.bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:38 pm By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.
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Re: We are living in simulating reality
How do they manage direct access to something that is not them? Or, how does one part of the mind have direct access to another part? Then we have a sensing process with no intermediary. If that exists 'internally' how do we know it does not exist externally, especially given that all knowledge about sensory perception is based on experience of things not mind?bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:28 pmI think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pmApart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
I have arguments in favor of minds but I am not going to discuss them with you.
Nonsense.Age wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:24 pm 2. The body DIRECTLY experiences 'things'. IF ANY one wants to CLAIM, "But what is experienced could just be in a simulation", then that is fine. However, that could NOT refute that no matter how many of these supposed simulations could be existing they ALL HAVE TO be existing within A REALITY.
Wrong.
As I said.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
I am talking about my version of substance dualism in which there are minds and qualia, the mind being an irreducible substance with the ability to experience and cause qualia, and qualia is the subject of experience. I have several arguments in favor the substance dualism.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 amYou are starting with an irrational unjustified claim, an assumption of dualism, i.e.
- Property dualism, a view in the philosophy of mind and metaphysics which holds that, although the world is composed of just one kind of substance—the physical kind—there exist two distinct kinds of properties: physical properties and mental properties
Epistemological dualism, the epistemological question of whether the world we see around us is the real world itself or merely an internal perceptual copy of that world generated by neural processes in our brain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
Not, when substance dualism is established as the only viewpoint that describes reality well.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am Because you begin with an ASSUMPTION, the mind is independent and separate from 'reality' there is no way you will EVER realize or know what is reality-in-itself. Thus to find an answer to what is reality on the basis of dualism or physical realism is a non-starter.
Empirical evidence alone cannot take you anywhere.Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am OTOH, it would be more realistic to determine [verify and justify within a FSK] what is 'real' based on experience and empirical evidence of emergences supported with rational philosophical reasoning.
And where is your philosophical reasoning based on the scientific FSK model?Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 7:22 am At present the most reliable FSK to establish what is real [fact, truth, reality] is the scientific FSK-model.
Despite scientific facts are the most credible [albeit at best are polished conjectures] and to avoid Scientism, we must nevertheless subject those facts to further philosophical reasonings and scrutiny.
On this basis of reality, we must at all costs avoid the proclivities to harbor and ignore the philosophical realists urge to insist there is still something real out there independent of mind. Such ideas are a non-starter.
As such, we must adopt the view that the very realistic reality we have is that justifiable and verifiable reality from empirical evidence and supported by philosophical reasonings.
But the point is what is real in this case rest on a continuum of reality which stretch from what is highly real [90/100] to the extreme of a hallucination [real like mirage or those experienced by schizophrenics, 20/100, to a highly speculated simulated reality by highly evolved beings from light years away 1/100.
Note the contrast of my explanation of possible simulated reality [1/100] to your ASSUMPTION of a non-starter-impossible-to-be-real hypothesis.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
I cannot follow you here.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:42 amIf other minds generate qualia what we experience and qualia are experienced and generated by the mind, the it sure sounds like collaboration is possible.bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:38 pm By living in a simulating reality I didn't mean that the reality if there is any, is certainly a simulation. It could be, however. How? We have two things, minds, and qualia in substance dualism. Qualia are experienced and generated by the mind. We cannot directly experience other minds but only have access to the qualia they generate.
So you agree with me?Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:42 am And if there are other minds, they aren't simulated. And I am not simulated. Not in any sense that could contrast these minds with reality. As in, it's not reality it's a simulation.
Re: We are living in simulating reality
It is what it is. It is a matter of necessity. I have any argument for that.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 amHow do they manage direct access to something that is not them?bahman wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:28 pmI think our minds have local direct access to qualia. So no regress is involved.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 10:06 pm Apart from the good point made by the person in the above post, there's also the issue of infinite regress. Do we have direct access to the simulation or do we sense that? And then the next layer and the next.
The mind does not have parts.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 am Or, how does one part of the mind have direct access to another part?
Without mind, you cannot experience anything.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:45 am Then we have a sensing process with no intermediary. If that exists 'internally' how do we know it does not exist externally, especially given that all knowledge about sensory perception is based on experience of things not mind?