Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Belinda wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 2:57 pm
My present position is that the reality in which we find ourselves (this world, this
kosmos, the universe) is so outlandishly impossible, and yet so seemingly complete and real, that whatever put it into motion could have put, and I think likely did put, any number of 'realities' into motion. In this sense, to employ the common metaphor, the mind of God is infinite. There are no limits that could be placed on *it*. Anything is possible!
The vast creativity, expression, and potential that we can observe and be aware of (if we are not singularly focused on certain stories), suggests to me...
> there is a great web of connectivity we are part of
> there is always so much more than any particular position or (as you put it) lens of perception
So why wouldn't we be capable of perceiving and living in
ever-increasing and broader dynamic ways if we were open to that? Why would there be a single structure or template for anything?
Would this include the 'single structure' or 'single template' of, "There is NOT One Truth" or "There is NOT One Reality" also?
Or, is your OWN 'single structure', or 'single template', "lacewing" NOT included?
By the way, WHY would there be a 'single structure' or 'single template' for ANY 'thing' is BECAUSE there is ONLY One single Truth, or ONLY One single Reality, for ANY thing. So, that is WHY.
That 'you', human beings, in the day and age of when this was being written, have NOT REACHED KNOWING what those single Truths ARE, YET, then it is GREAT ADVICE of 'yours' to be OPEN to that there is MORE than you KNOW, so far. But, HOLDING your OWN 'single structure' or 'single template', like, for example, the one that HOLDS that; "There is NO single Truth", is just EXPRESSING CONTRADICTION, at its best, and is just SHOWING how HYPOCRITICAL your REALLY ARE.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Mr. Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:24 pm
When someone, anyone, describes *what is seen*, we have to focus on the nature of the one doing the seeing.
Yes! And yet you(?) insisted that I must focus on ideas instead of those who project them?
A lot of insight can be gained about ideas and claims by noticing the payoffs gained by their creators. And we don't have to be serious about it. The games that people play can be seen as very funny... even when people are taking themselves very seriously.
VERY True. When 'you', people, LOOK AT just how ABSOLUTELY ABSURD 'you' can be and ARE, then 'you' will be ABLE to REALLY laugh AT "yourselves" and then move FORWARDS.
Doing STUPID 'things' is just as NATURAL for the adult human being animal as being the MOST INTELLIGENT animal is for the young human beings IS.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Mr. Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:24 pm
A 'righteous God' is a God absolutely outside of human issues and problems. In this sense a 'righteous' God must be an absolutely intelligent God, and thus knows that in one way or another, in one moment or another, all souls can be reached.
Yes! This is what I see/think, as well. So, I must wonder about men who fabricate a structure/idea based on their own limitations, and then insist that IT defines and rules over all, as an all-knowing, all-powerful creator of all.
Do you ALSO 'wonder' about the human being who fabricates the structure/idea that "There is NO single Truth", which is OBVIOUSLY based on their OWN limitations? Or, you do NOT wonder about this one?
Do you ALSO 'wonder' about the human being that fabricated that structure/idea and who also INSISTS that IT defines and rules over ALL other structure or ideas? Or, you do NOT wonder about this either?
Also, thee ALL-knowing and ALL-powerful Creator, which OBVIOUSLY DOES define and rules over ALL and is thee Creator of ALL, does ACTUALLY EXIST. But 'It' exists in a shape and a form, and in a way, that most of 'you', human beings, are just NOT YET AWARE of, in the days when this is being written.
Your OWN BELIEF "lacewing" that has created the structure or idea, which is based on your very OWN limitations, that one such thing could NOT exist does NOT mean that 'It' does NOT exist. What this MEANS is that 'you', "your" 'self', are just NOT YET OPEN enough to SEEING what thee ACTUAL Truth IS.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
And they (themselves) are the uniquely divine interpreters of
it, while casting themselves as being in service to its greatness.
OF COURSE NONE of 'them' are the so-called "uniquely divine interpreters' of 'It'. This can be PROVED True over and over again, and again. But for ANY one to even just consider that ANY one of 'them' was a 'uniquely divine interpreter' is FOOLISHNESS, in the EXTREME. So, there is NO 'need' to HARP on about this. But let us NOT FORGET that EVERY one is EQUALLY the SAME in relation being in so-called 'service' to thee one and ONLY One, and that absolutely EVERY one has absolute EQUAL ACCESS to thee one and ONLY One.
And, that is it is ONLY through EVERY one's SHARED 'version' of thee one and ONLY One's Truth WHEN and WHERE thee One and ONLY Truth IS REVEALED and becomes SEEN.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Such madness/delusion tangled up in ego and desperation is fascinating (and can be horrifying). Such does not reflect the clarity or broadness of sight of a god, at all. Rather it represents man who is willingly and willfully accepting or utilizing deception (and lies) and denial to sustain whatever delusion serves that man.
And, EXACTLY what 'you' are doing here, "lacewing", is a PRIME EXAMPLE of 'this', IN ACTION.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Although I don't think it matters that some serve/comfort/inspire themselves in this way, I think there's value in pointing out the destructive and false nature it may demonstrate/utilize at times.
I find it fascinating that there is much that Mr. Can does not get about what you say. He is so locked-in to a narrow channel which he seems to suggest is the only channel that matters.
Is is a POSSIBILITY "lacewing" that 'you' ALSO are 'locked-in' to your OWN very narrowed channel, which you seem to, and do, suggest is the ONLY channel that matters?
You, after all, do continually CLAIM that your OWN single structure or template is thee ONLY true, right, and correct ONE.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
His reflections of God seem very small and contrived to me (which are actually reflections of himself).
"immanuel can's" reflections of God are OBVIOUSLY VERY small, VERY narrowed, VERY short-sighted, and VERY delusional, to say the least. But, "immanuel can's" reflections here are NOT the ONLY very small, narrowed, and short VIEWED ones.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Just as you find value in engaging with that in your own way by ignoring his lack of acceptance/awareness -- I, too, engage with it in a way that entertains me. Perhaps we share the hope (whenever we interact on this forum) that we can come up with the right words or triggers that will stimulate broader thinking.
What words, or triggers, do 'you' ENVISION "lacewing" could stimulate 'you' to broader thinking and seeing?
Or, do you BELIEVE WHOLEHEARTEDLY that 'you' have the MOST BROADEST of 'thinking' and/or 'seeing'?
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
I think it's worthwhile to consider that people on this forum see many different views of this Universe we share, and to notice how self-serving or rigid/closed or 'locked-in' any such views might be, and to question what the point/agenda of that might be in a Universe of such vast potential? Why do we choose to champion certain notions? What is the payoff, and what does that tell us?
WHY do you PROPOSE these questions to "others", especially when they could be DIRECTED at 'you' considering that 'you' do the EXACT SAME 'thing' that 'you' continually CLAIM "others" do?
Also, I suggest just LOOK AT 'those views' that 'we' ALL SHARE, and then 'you' will SEE, and then FIND, what thee One ACTUAL Truth IS, EXACTLY.
Finding and SEEING Truth REALLY is this SIMPLE and EASY.
By the way, thee ANSWERS to those questions you pose here could be answered, by 'you', which if you did answer Truly Honestly and OPENLY, then you will FIND that your answers would be the SAME for EVERY one "else". But, you would have to FIRST NOTICE, and ADMIT, just how self-serving or rigid/closed, or 'locked-in', your views might be, and then to ask "yourself" the same questions you posed here.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Are we able to see familiarity or shared meaning between ideas, or are we compelled to scramble to some imaginary 'top', 'knowing' position?
I have been ABLE to SEE thee ACTUAL 'familiarity and shared' VIEWS, and meaning between ideas. I have also been WATCHING and OBSERVING, especially 'you', "lacewing" and "immanuel can" here, both showing that 'you' each have the 'only true' 'knowledge', and both 'you' feeling 'compelled' to scramble to being in the 'top' 'knowing position'. Which, by the way, has and is extremely entertaining to SEE, especially considering what thee One and ONLY Truth IS, EXACTLY.
Which 'you', two, could NOT be ANY FURTHER AWAY FROM, by the way.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
The ego can be a creepy beast to deal with. Does one use it to try to control and dominate a 'field' -- or does one use it as a 'character' at play in a vast playing field? When we take ourselves and our notions too seriously, it seems that we become servants of those creations, which cannot be allowed to fall if we identify/validate ourselves through those creations.
'you', "lacewing", are AGAIN SHOWING a PRIME EXAMPLE of this misbehaving.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Mr. Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:24 pmI think in some sense I evince here a greater faith than you in God's power.
Yes! I (too) sense a greater potential than any god of human creation.
But having a greater 'faith' than you in God's power is NOT the same as sensing a greater potential than ANY 'god' of human creation.
Also, how could there even be ANY thing of 'greater potential' than an ALL-knowing AND ALL-creating of EVERY thing God?
Your CLAIM here, ONCE AGAIN, seems Truly CONTRADICTORY and HYPOCRITICAL
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Such an idea is completely dismissed by most theists because their idea of God is limited to what they can place labels and stories on.
So, how, EXACTLY, is a 'God-idea', created by human beings, which CAN KNOW EVERY 'thing' and CAN CREATE EVERY 'thing' be limited in ANY way?
Maybe when you RID "your" 'self' that the human being created 'God', which CAN create EVERY thing and know EVERY thing is limited in some way, then you will STOP with this PERSISTENT and RIDICULOUS 'notion' that this God is somehow limited in some way.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Anything beyond the rigid, self-serving ideas/positions is some sort of blasphemy, apparently.
What do you call ANY thing that is beyond your OWN rigid, self-serving idea/position that, "There is NOT one Truth"?
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Yet, consider how absurd and somewhat horrific it is to limit this idea of God in such human ways, and to create our own idol which is essentially self-glorifying even if we try to project the image 'out there' somewhere -- meaning that we do not allow there to be MORE than ourselves!
Consider just how absurd and somewhat horrific it is to limit the idea that the idea of God is limited in some such human way? To have this idea that the idea of God is limited means that that one is not allowing there to be MORE than "them" 'self'.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Alexis Jacobi to Mr. Can wrote: ↑Sat Jan 15, 2022 5:24 pm
But I predicate my sense of the value of Christianity on a wider foundation. I seem to be far more -- what is the word? -- tolerant of human foibles, of man's incapacity to live up to the demands of extreme idealism.
I suggest that there are always 'wider views' for us to become aware of -- and when we lock-down on certain ideas, we essentially shutdown on that which is broader. Small 'truths' vs. larger 'truths'.
LOOK, there will ALWAYS be MORE 'things' to learn AND understand and this is just an OBVIOUS Fact, which NO here would even be disputing would they?
So, if ANY one has a fixed view or if they are locked down on or by certain ideas, which STOPS or PREVENTS them from having a 'wider' or 'bigger field of' view, then they can NOT become MORE AWARE of some particular 'things'. But let us NOT FORGET that it is 'you' here "lacewing" who has an EXTREMELY 'narrowed view' and who IS 'locked down' by a certain idea you have.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
Can we operate on 'foundations' without being so tied to, or blinded by, them? Can we consider them, rather, like stepping stones through a dynamic Universe?
You ask these questions, but pose them to "others", on the False premise that they do NOT relate to you.
The ANSWERS are OBVIOUS, so the QUESTIONS are MOOT, REALLY.
If you do NOT YET KNOW the answers ALREADY, then WHY NOT?
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
All of my experiences and views are part of my toolbox for dealing with an ever-shifting world.
But thee 'world', itself, does NOT shift from thee One that 'it' ACTUALLY ALWAYS IS.
Learn and KNOW what this One Truth IS, then you will LEARN and ALSO KNOW that there ACTUALLY IS One Truth, contrary to what you BELIEVE and MAINTAIN is true.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
I don't need a specific story that explains it all.
Absolutely NO one 'needs' a specific story that explains it all, EITHER.
To ASSUME or BELIEVE ANY one does, just SHOWS how NARROWED thinking and viewing some people REALLY ARE.
There is, by the way, A 'story' that DOES explain 'It' ALL, which is ALSO evolving within a continually learning and evolving 'knowing' creature, known as the 'human being'. Furthermore, thee 'story' that DOES explain 'It' ALL can ONLY, obviously, be made up of One Truth ONLY.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
I am dynamic and diverse, like all else in the Universe I'm part of... and clearly that works (in whole) with an undefinable perfection that reaches well beyond the limits imagined, perceived, and defined by man. It is such limits that I think philosophers would be wise to question.
'you', "lacewing", are REALLY 'fixated' by the 'limits' imagined by human beings. 'you' are in fact so 'fixated' on 'this' that this 'fixation' of 'yours' is 'limiting' 'you' to what thee ACTUAL Truth REALLY IS.
Lacewing wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:47 pm
What if we notice and explore what is possible, rather than arguing over the nebulous notion of 'what is true'?
When, and IF, 'you', "lacewing", EVER did START NOTICING and EXPLORING what IS POSSIBLE, rather than just "arguing" over your OWN 'nebulous notion' of 'what is true', then 'you' WILL FIND and SEE that there are SOME 'things' that ARE ACTUALLY IRREFUTABLY True. And, it is these 'things' that ACTUALLY make up thee One and ONLY Truths.