Good conversation.Vitruvius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:38 pmVitruvius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 pmAgain, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:29 pmAcknowledging that we can't know the contents would be more honest. And then we acknowledge that we're making educated guesses based on behavior, but then what would be the most honest would be acknowledging that the further that something is from us anatomically, the less basis we have for making guesses based on behavior, because we just can't know how mentality would correlate to behavior in those cases. So again, in other words, we don't know what birds' mentalities might be like.
"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."
I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.Let it go!Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 pmHoly crap, dude.
Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?
How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Vitruvius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 pmAgain, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:
"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."
I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 pmHoly crap, dude.
Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?
A veritable Socratic dialogue - but for the dull witted student!
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
No need to insult yourself. I'd rather you just answer the questions and engage in a conversation.Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:27 pmVitruvius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 pmAgain, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:
"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."
I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 pmHoly crap, dude.
Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?A veritable Socratic dialogue - but for the dull witted student!
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Vitruvius wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:11 pmAgain, you missed the point of the analogy. A bird doesn't build a nest with a conscious view to laying eggs. Nest building behaviour is instinctual; it's ingrained by evolution, and it's the same with the animal origins of morality. It's an example of an ingrained complex behaviour, and it relates to the OP's argument that:
"So a sound theory of moral responsibility has to be founded on the role of consciousness."
I disagree. I think of morality in terms of ingrained behaviour; the result of the structural relations of the kinship tribe, cross referenced with the observations of Jane Goodall. If you don't get the bird analogy, just let it go.
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:44 pmHoly crap, dude.
Is the bird's behavior moral in your view or not, first off?
Nest building is not moral behaviour. But it is an example of complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs. This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness." I disagree. I think morality is a behaviourally intelligent evolutionary adaptation - with origins long predating the existence of human beings. It does not require the conscious deliberation of choices, because choices have consequences - that have an ultimate evolutionary effect. So moral behaviour is promoted insofar as it serves the interests of the individual within the tribe, and the tribe in relation to other, competing organisms.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:14 pmNo need to insult yourself. I'd rather you just answer the questions and engage in a conversation.
Now you say something.
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Sure.
How does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
This relates to the OP's contention that 'Morality must begin with the role of consciousness."
You'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmHow does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
It is what it is.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmYou'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Mammals' several ways of behaving morally and birds' nest building and so forth are adaptive behaviours caused by natural selection. The difference is that while humans codify their cultural morality birds and other animals don't.
A human who persistently flouts the rules of his codified culture, or whose instincts are pathological, will be probably be disempowered or killed. Birds and other animals that don't behave in line with their cultures or their instincts will probably die before they can reproduce their genes.
A human who persistently flouts the rules of his codified culture, or whose instincts are pathological, will be probably be disempowered or killed. Birds and other animals that don't behave in line with their cultures or their instincts will probably die before they can reproduce their genes.
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Irrelevant to the debate?Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 9:03 am
It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmHow does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
It is what it is.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmYou'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Per Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.
What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:14 pmPer Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.
What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?
I think moral behaviour is part of cultural behaviour and insofar as nest building among birds is cultural(i.e. learned) it is not instinctive. I'm not a zoologist.However I do know that among dogs the mother dog teaches her puppies stuff that they learn from her learned i.e. it's not instinctive.This is why responsible breeders don't separate mother and pups too soon. I got my puppy at 12 weeks as I was really keen the mother had socialised it.
I don't include 'instinctive' behaviour with moral behaviour at all. Instinctive, to me, means e.g. spinal reflexes, sexual orgasms, changing position to a more comfortable position,voiding faeces and urine when the urge happens, drinking when thirsty, flinching from pain or fear, and eating when hungry. Moral behaviour is learned from others.
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Would you say that moral behavior can occur even though consciousness and/or conscious decisions do not?Belinda wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:59 pmTerrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:14 pmPer Virtuvius, the nest-building example he gave isn't an example or moral behavior, though. Claiming that it would be an example of moral behavior would be another issue.
What would you give as an example of instinctive behavior, behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision/making, that you'd say is moral behavior?
I think moral behaviour is part of cultural behaviour and insofar as nest building among birds is cultural(i.e. learned) it is not instinctive. I'm not a zoologist.However I do know that among dogs the mother dog teaches her puppies stuff that they learn from her learned i.e. it's not instinctive.This is why responsible breeders don't separate mother and pups too soon. I got my puppy at 12 weeks as I was really keen the mother had socialised it.
I don't include 'instinctive' behaviour with moral behaviour at all. Instinctive, to me, means e.g. spinal reflexes, sexual orgasms, changing position to a more comfortable position,voiding faeces and urine when the urge happens, drinking when thirsty, flinching from pain or fear, and eating when hungry. Moral behaviour is learned from others.
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmHow does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmYou'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.
There's a debate?
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Re whether morality can obtain sans consciousness and specifically conscious decision-making.Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:23 pm
It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmHow does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmYou'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.There's a debate?
Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmHow does it relate to that? It's not moral behavior. How does talking about something that's not moral behavior relate to talking about moral behavior?
Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:33 pmYou'd have to give an example of something that you believe is:
(a) instinctive behavior
and
(b) moral behavior
and
(c) behavior that doesn't involve consciousness/conscious decision-making.
But I told you! Am I to take it you found the explanation unconvincing? If so, how so?Terrapin Station wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:25 pmRe whether morality can obtain sans consciousness and specifically conscious decision-making.
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Re: How Moral Responsibility arises from Consciousness
Is anyone doubting that evolution can give rise to complex behavior, though?Vitruvius wrote: ↑Sun Sep 05, 2021 1:28 pm It relates in the sense that it's complex behaviour ingrained by evolution; in anticipation of an event the individual bird could not consciously anticipate, i.e. laying eggs - and so demonstrates how evolution can give rise to complex behaviours, with an appearance of cognition that isn't there.
You told me (and us in general) how? Not via the bird example. You said that's not an example of moral behavior (and I agree with that).But I told you! Am I to take it you found the explanation unconvincing? If so, how so?