threads meander
solving racism
- henry quirk
- Posts: 14706
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Re: solving racism
I do, but I believe my time is valuable. You don't.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm I recall you self-employ too, or are wealthy, or somesuch: do you charge an hourly rate?
You believe that loss of time is an "inconvenience", not harm. It only hurts your feelings.
..but you won't work for free for some reason.
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: solving racism
You missed the split in the road. Let me help you...
- henry quirk
- Posts: 14706
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Re: solving racism
not my feelings...I don't cry about inconvenience: I work around itSkepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:20 pmI do, but I believe that time is valuable.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:16 pm I recall you self-employ too, or are wealthy, or somesuch: do you charge an hourly rate?
You believe that loss of time is an "inconvenience", not harm. It only hurts your feelings.
you, on the other hand....
- henry quirk
- Posts: 14706
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
- Location: Right here, a little less busy.
- henry quirk
- Posts: 14706
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
- Location: Right here, a little less busy.
Re: solving racism
you won't work for free for some reason.
cuz I like to eat?
cuz I like to eat?
- RCSaunders
- Posts: 4704
- Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2018 9:42 pm
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Re: solving racism
There is only anything to solve if racism is a problem for you.Advocate wrote: ↑Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:41 pm There are three reasons you might believe being racist is the correct world-view.
a) You trust that racist people around you to have your best interest in mind.
b) You believe even if racism is bad, there is some other reason to be racist that is more important.
c) Your own experience shows you that racism is necessary.
Each of these can be addressed in a certain epistemological way.
Re: solving racism
I'll feed you.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:27 pm you won't work for free for some reason.
cuz I like to eat?
Come work for free.
- Immanuel Can
- Posts: 23102
- Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:42 pm
Re: solving racism
"Solving"? How do you "solve" an attitude?
You can't. You can't tell people what they are allowed to think secretly. They won't listen. You can't change their secret thoughts. You can only legislate against the antisocial manifestations of the attitude.
In other words, you can do things like making it illegal to reject somebody for a job or admit somebody to education based on his/her skin colour. Or you can penalize anybody who refuses service to somebody on the same kinds of grounds. And provided you can prove those things are happening, you can make it too costly for people to do them.
What you cannot do is force them to have attitudes. People will think what they think. Some will have attitudes you don't like, and some will have attitudes you do. But they're private, so you've no power over them.
But this is where "systemic racism" is such a terrible idea. The people who believe it's a thing can never tell you a) where it is, in specific, or b) who is doing it. No, they say, it's just "systemic" -- out there in the air, like hydrogen molecules. You'll never locate it, you'll never solve it...it's just "out there" until we say it's not -- which we will never, never say. And everything is to blame, they say...all of society, in a chemical, total way. (Well, racism is in everybody and everything that is not THEM, they assure you.) You haven't done enough, they tell you, because "systemic racism" is still "out there." And you'll never do enough. Because you can never prove that racism has been "solved": you can't measure what you can't even find. They want you to take their word for it, though -- "systemic racism" is real and malevolent, they assure you...and if you ask them to show you, they tell you that you just haven't understood "systemic," and you're probably an evil racist yourself. (Check your privilege, whitey.)
They don't want racism "solved." They want it perpetual, eternal, and unfindable. They want it "out there" so they can allege they hate it, and virtue signal about it, and hold 'protests' that do nothing good at all, and above all, claim privileges, special status and reparations based on it...and they would sit down on a kerbstone and cry if you ever convinced them you'd "solved" racism.
But we pretty much have. The attitude might still be "out there" somewhere unlocatable, but nothing can really be done about that. We have all the laws we need to make racism eliminable in practice: we have "solved" it. It's illegal in employment, in commerce, in education, in housing, and so on in every case except for the special "anti-racist" racist privileges we're still handing out, for some reason.
The only total "solution" to racism is the day when people choose not to hold any private racially-discriminatory attitude. But that is just not a thing that legislation, or protest propaganda, or equity initiatives can achieve. At some point, the worst thing you can do is keep talking like "racism" is still a thing, when every possible measure against it has already been taken. Then, you're just giving publicity to the attitude. By treating it as consummately important, you're giving it a dignity it never deserved. You're presenting it as a dire enemy; but dire enemies are presumably formidable, viable and current. They are still to be reckoned with.
Racism is history. Time to walk on. Get past it.
You can't. You can't tell people what they are allowed to think secretly. They won't listen. You can't change their secret thoughts. You can only legislate against the antisocial manifestations of the attitude.
In other words, you can do things like making it illegal to reject somebody for a job or admit somebody to education based on his/her skin colour. Or you can penalize anybody who refuses service to somebody on the same kinds of grounds. And provided you can prove those things are happening, you can make it too costly for people to do them.
What you cannot do is force them to have attitudes. People will think what they think. Some will have attitudes you don't like, and some will have attitudes you do. But they're private, so you've no power over them.
But this is where "systemic racism" is such a terrible idea. The people who believe it's a thing can never tell you a) where it is, in specific, or b) who is doing it. No, they say, it's just "systemic" -- out there in the air, like hydrogen molecules. You'll never locate it, you'll never solve it...it's just "out there" until we say it's not -- which we will never, never say. And everything is to blame, they say...all of society, in a chemical, total way. (Well, racism is in everybody and everything that is not THEM, they assure you.) You haven't done enough, they tell you, because "systemic racism" is still "out there." And you'll never do enough. Because you can never prove that racism has been "solved": you can't measure what you can't even find. They want you to take their word for it, though -- "systemic racism" is real and malevolent, they assure you...and if you ask them to show you, they tell you that you just haven't understood "systemic," and you're probably an evil racist yourself. (Check your privilege, whitey.)
They don't want racism "solved." They want it perpetual, eternal, and unfindable. They want it "out there" so they can allege they hate it, and virtue signal about it, and hold 'protests' that do nothing good at all, and above all, claim privileges, special status and reparations based on it...and they would sit down on a kerbstone and cry if you ever convinced them you'd "solved" racism.
But we pretty much have. The attitude might still be "out there" somewhere unlocatable, but nothing can really be done about that. We have all the laws we need to make racism eliminable in practice: we have "solved" it. It's illegal in employment, in commerce, in education, in housing, and so on in every case except for the special "anti-racist" racist privileges we're still handing out, for some reason.
The only total "solution" to racism is the day when people choose not to hold any private racially-discriminatory attitude. But that is just not a thing that legislation, or protest propaganda, or equity initiatives can achieve. At some point, the worst thing you can do is keep talking like "racism" is still a thing, when every possible measure against it has already been taken. Then, you're just giving publicity to the attitude. By treating it as consummately important, you're giving it a dignity it never deserved. You're presenting it as a dire enemy; but dire enemies are presumably formidable, viable and current. They are still to be reckoned with.
Racism is history. Time to walk on. Get past it.
Re: solving racism
Compassion/empathy is a learnable skill when interactions aren't framed as stand-offs/witch hunts.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:50 pm "Solving"? How do you "solve" an attitude?
You can't. You can't tell people what they are allowed to think secretly. They won't listen. You can't change their secret thoughts. You can only legislate against the antisocial manifestations of the attitude.
In other words, you can do things like making it illegal to reject somebody for a job or admit somebody to education based on his/her skin colour. Or you can penalize anybody who refuses service to somebody on the same kinds of grounds. And provided you can prove those things are happening, you can make it too costly for people to do them.
What you cannot do is force them to have attitudes. People will think what they think. Some will have attitudes you don't like, and some will have attitudes you do. But they're private, so you've no power over them.
Too bad the lynch-mob doesn't know how to practice this. Emotional intelligence is lacking on both sides of the equation.
On the upside, people who lack EQ are easy to manipulate emotionally. My wife has developed an astounding circus act to rapidly humanise herself to people who treat her like "just another black girl". Mirroring language, accent, body language, humour - the works. She makes people feel comfortable and she gets whatever the hell she wants out of them...
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- vegetariantaxidermy
- Posts: 13983
- Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
- Location: Narniabiznus
Re: solving racism
So you are a racist by your own definition. But I suppose when you belong to the 'morally- elite- and-beyond-reproach', being exposed as a hypocrite is water off a duck's back.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:30 amYou do realise I am a landlord, right? So I demand higher deposits (to off-set my risk) from cultural groups with bad reputations.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:27 am FFS. The ONLY thing landlords care about is getting their money and not having their property destroyed. If they've had bad experiences of people with 'black names' then it's hardly 'racist' for them to avoid those names.
Which is vastly different from denying them an opportunity to rent my property because other people like them did bad things.
And New Zealand is a small place. Are you this ignorant of cultural Māori names also?vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:27 am You do realise that Africa is a huge continent made up of many countries don't you?
Re: solving racism
I am a racist.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:11 pm So you are a racist by your own definition. But I suppose when you belong to the 'morally- elite- and-beyond-reproach', being exposed as a hypocrite is water off a duck's back.
But ain't nobody feeling fucked-over by my racism: I give my tenants 10% interest on their deposit when the bank offers less than 5.
I off-set my risk - tenant earns higher interest. It's win-win!
Give your brain some time to regroup from your failed attack vector, before you blurt out your next zero-sum game.
- vegetariantaxidermy
- Posts: 13983
- Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:45 am
- Location: Narniabiznus
Re: solving racism
Just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who like to throw the 'r' word around. Touchy touchy,
- henry quirk
- Posts: 14706
- Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 8:07 pm
- Location: Right here, a little less busy.
Re: solving racism
if you feed me, then you're payin' meSkepdick wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 5:21 pmI'll feed you.henry quirk wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 4:27 pm you won't work for free for some reason.
cuz I like to eat?
Come work for free.
two questions:
what's the job?
what's on the menu?
Re: solving racism
There's no need to task yourself with the moral-superiorty-overwatch duty.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:36 pm Just pointing out the hypocrisy of those who like to throw the 'r' word around. Touchy touchy,
I make it real easy for you: I've confessed to my hypocrisy multiple times. Exactly like my racism.
Last edited by Skepdick on Wed Nov 04, 2020 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.