I don't have to. I used it apropos.
You went from qualifying the difference between 'green' and 'red' (which science can do), to telling Mary what 'red' looks like (which science can't do).
That's a non-sequitur. Idiot.
I don't have to. I used it apropos.
You went from qualifying the difference between 'green' and 'red' (which science can do), to telling Mary what 'red' looks like (which science can't do).
My strategy for getting answers is asking questions.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:44 pmYet you offer nothing better as a way of learning about the world?
Like I said: you want answers, but you have no strategy, or even a vaguest of ideas on how to get them.
Science can Detect all kinds of things without Seeing.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:46 pmWhat about Consciousness, can Science see it..to then known exactly what it is they are measuring?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 7:17 pmI have thought that Science will some day be able to measure actual Conscious Experience, not just the Neural Correlates of Experience. When Science can do that Science will not only be helped by that but Science will have unlocked the door to Consciousness. This is just Speculation but it is all we can do given the state of our understanding of Consciousness at this time.
What I mean is, can Science know what anything is unless they've first seen / or looked at it?
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Is it working?
How can something like Redness be a linguistic artefact? If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience. Our Physical Bodies would become Zombies that are Blind, Deaf, and etc.. The Zombies wouldn't even want to eat each other because they would not be able to feel Hunger.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:22 pm42.
The first problem of "consciousness" (as far as I can tell) is to determine whether it's an actual phenomenon, or if it's just a linguistic artefact.
The simplest thought experiment goes like this: Suppose that consciousness does exist, what change do you expect to observe in the universe if consciousness suddenly disappeared?
I spent 20 years reading up on Philosophy and then Brain Physiology. The process involved asking questions and getting answers about things. I have learned a lot so yes it has been working up until Philosophy and Brain Physiology both hit a Brick Wall when it comes to the final question, Given:
What's the difference between 'experience' and 'conscious experience'?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 pm If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience.
I like to say Conscious Experience to emphasize that it is a Conscious Phenomenon and not a Physical Phenomenon. But it is essentially the same thing. I also like to say Conscious Mind to distinguish it from the Physical Mind which is the Brain.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:08 pmWhat's the difference between 'experience' and 'conscious experience'?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 10:56 pm If Consciousness would disappear then we would disappear because we are made out of Consciousness and Conscious Experience.
Perhaps you are unaware that the fella that came up with this thought experiment eventually admitted he was wrong (he isn’t a child though):Sculptor wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 3:35 pmIn other words no science, no number system, no classification system could have told Mary what Red LOOKS LIKE, until she saw it with her own eyes.Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue Jul 09, 2019 2:04 pmHere's roughly what went through Mary's mind at this very moment.
1. I have never experienced this color before.
2. I didn't know apples were this color (because all the apples I ever saw were black&white!)
3. I need to give this color-experience a name, so I am going to call it .... apply!
The word 'red' doesn't exist in Mary's vocabulary. It's in the narrator's vocabulary.
And I have to point out that there is no way to tell if what you see when you see red is the same as I see when I see red. Though we can agree that it is red, we are not able know that we observe the same quality.
This is not difficult.
Children get this.
By saying consciousnesss is a possible thing to be detected implies consciousness is a thing in and of itself outside of the conscious scientist attempting to detect it.
That's more 'thought'
I am not piling on more thought. I just gave it a label. A name we can both use in conversation.
And who says I am trying to "reach" anything? That's not what language is for...
The knower of thought knows thought. This is as far as we are going to go conceptually.
I think of this more in terms of Conscious Experience like the Experience of Redness. I don't know, and nobody knows, but I Speculate that it may be possible to measure the actual Redness Experience of an individual Conscious Mind. So yes, I think there are separate Conscious Minds, but I don't know that. It is a direction for study to take. Without knowing what Conscious Experience is, all possibilities are still on the table.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:49 amBy saying consciousnesss is a possible thing to be detected implies consciousness is a thing in and of itself outside of the conscious scientist attempting to detect it.
SO then supposing the detection of consciousness is found by a conscious scientist ..even if they can't see it, they'll still have to know it's there because they've detected it...so where will the actual location of the found consciousness by detection present itself as known by the scientist?
In what shape or form will consciousness show up as...even if they can't see it, they'd still have to know it is there else they wouldn't be able to claim they'd found it without knowing it.
So then the detected consciousness would have to present itself outside of the scientists own consciousness before it could be known to be there...because to find a thing called consciousness by detection would need a conscious observer to acknowledge it's actual detection..so that implies the detected consciousness would have to be outside of a scientists own consciousness...is that what you are saying?
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Are you aware of the fact that all measurements are relative to a frame of reference? If you are going to measure 'redness' - what reference frame are you going to measure it in relation to?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am I think of this more in terms of Conscious Experience like the Experience of Redness. I don't know, and nobody knows, but I Speculate that it may be possible to measure the actual Redness Experience of an individual Conscious Mind.
Observe: you fail to suggest a methodology/strategy/approach for learning/discovering/answering the question: What is experience?SteveKlinko wrote: ↑Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am So yes, I think there are separate Conscious Minds, but I don't know that. It is a direction for study to take. Without knowing what Conscious Experience is, all possibilities are still on the table.