What is meant by "conceptual tool"? What is a "conceptual tool"? Are some things not "conceptual tools" or are all things conceptual tools?
Is morality objective or subjective?
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Not sure what's unclear here.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:12 pm What is meant by "conceptual tool"? What is a "conceptual tool"? Are some things not "conceptual tools" or are all things conceptual tools?
Tools help you get stuff done. Ideas/concepts help you get stuff done.
Thinking helps you get stuff done.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
OK. Is morality a tool or is morality something else entirely?Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:19 pmNot sure what's unclear here.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:12 pm What is meant by "conceptual tool"? What is a "conceptual tool"? Are some things not "conceptual tools" or are all things conceptual tools?
Tools help you get stuff done. Ideas/concepts help you get stuff done.
Thinking helps you get stuff done.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
If you are using it - it's a tool.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:21 pmOK. Is morality a tool or is morality something else entirely?Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:19 pmNot sure what's unclear here.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:12 pm What is meant by "conceptual tool"? What is a "conceptual tool"? Are some things not "conceptual tools" or are all things conceptual tools?
Tools help you get stuff done. Ideas/concepts help you get stuff done.
Thinking helps you get stuff done.
Do you use morality? I do.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
No one, me included, can "use" morality. Morality is what governs how we use tools and what we use them for.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:33 pmIf you are using it - it's a tool.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:21 pmOK. Is morality a tool or is morality something else entirely?
Do you use morality? I do.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
A governing body sounds like a useful idea...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:35 pm Morality is what governs how we use tools and what we use them for.
I imagine that's why theists have Gods; and societies have Governments.
Either way - higher authorities.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Morality is not a specific entity or being to hold a government position. However, morality ought to govern us.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:37 pmA governing body sounds like a useful idea...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:35 pm Morality is what governs how we use tools and what we use them for.
I imagine that's why theists have Gods; and societies have Governments.
Either way - higher authorities.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I don't really care what it is or where it is, but It sounds like it performs a useful function...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:38 pm Morality is not a specific entity or being to hold a government position. However, morality ought to govern us.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
It always performs a useful function even when it isn't "useful".Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:39 pmI don't really care what it is or where it is, but It sounds like it performs a useful function...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:38 pm Morality is not a specific entity or being to hold a government position. However, morality ought to govern us.
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Sounds like uselessness can be useful too...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:40 pmIt always performs a useful function even when it isn't "useful".Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:39 pmI don't really care what it is or where it is, but It sounds like it performs a useful function...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:38 pm Morality is not a specific entity or being to hold a government position. However, morality ought to govern us.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Well, again, Will, knowledge does not equal making. The equation is actually just that straightforward.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:43 amAnd yet he can build a world in which:
God has perfect foreknowledge of every decision you will make + There is nothing you can do to change the decisions God already knows you will make = God gave you freewill.
It's a bit of a paradigm shift to 'get' that, if one has already imagined the world as fated or pre-set, because that latter belief is very simple. But simple things are often too simple; and Determism is like that. It creates a simplistic sense of contradiction, one easy to think about; but it ignores the obvious reconcilability of knowledge and making.
So there's no uneven equation there. What you would need, in order to generate a real contradiction, is the claim that God makes everything happen, and man makes things happen. There are some people who believe that...usually called "Calvinists," or "Divine Determinists," and with regard to them, I'd have to agree that there's a logical problem. But not with the word "foreknowledge": even the Calvinists recognize that, and prefer the word "foreordination." Even the Calvinists realize "foreknowledge" is not enough to give them what they want to assert.
I can understand why. The Atheist problem is very serious, and quite intractable. It is much more consoling to ignore it entirely than to try to solve it from a skeptical perspective.I'm not interested in your musings about "the Atheist",Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Apr 05, 2024 6:16 pmBut of course, the Atheist does indeed have this contradiction problem. For denying God any role in making things happen (by definition) he must believe that everything is nothing more than a product of time and chance...
But if you have a right to question Theism -- which, I insist, you do indeed have -- then what wisdom is there in exempting your own presuppositions from the same terms of scrutiny? Are beliefs taken by accident, or unconsciously, or as a mere matter of negation of what somebody else thinks, usually wise beliefs? Or are they merely another kind of unexamined prejudice, unless we are prepared to open them up to an examination equivalent to that we level at contrary beliefs? There is danger in received beliefs, of course; but is there no danger at all in having no more than an ignorant and cynical skepticism, if, indeed, that's all we have? At the very least, it leaves us nothing to believe in, no positive conviction upon which to make rational and moral decisions...
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
What is useless is not useful. Morality is not useless.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:41 pmSounds like uselessness can be useful too...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:40 pmIt always performs a useful function even when it isn't "useful".
Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Sounds like the distinction between useful/useless is useful...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:44 pmWhat is useless is not useful. Morality is not useless.Skepdick wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:41 pmSounds like uselessness can be useful too...Gary Childress wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 2:40 pm
It always performs a useful function even when it isn't "useful".
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
Yes. A distinction can be useful.
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Re: Is morality objective or subjective?
I am open to the possibility. But I remain highly skeptical of at least two things, as well as others: one is the way the theory was generated in the first place, and the second is the massive amounts of fakery (such as the manifestly fraudulent monkey-to-man thing, or the continually-inflating timelines) that have already been summoned by supporters of Evolutionism to bolster their ideology in the face of the facts. I can add to that that I remain skeptical at the inability of Evolutionism to account for certain complex phenomena by providing any stage-or-continuum based explanation at all, such as triadic symbiosis -- the developmental interdependence of three or more complex organisms, which is manifest in certain cases in nature. So I've got quite a few good grounds for remaining skeptical about Evolutionism. And that's all a matter of rationality, not of some special "faith." Any sensible secular skeptic could easily share all those concerns I have.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Wed Apr 10, 2024 5:52 amWhat would science have to do in order for you to be open to even the possibility of evolution?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 1:10 pmYou "don't know"? "Maybe"?Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Apr 09, 2024 4:28 am
I don't know. Maybe if God presented himself to me, it might help? \_(*_*)_/
That's not exactly an unequivocal commitment to be open to even the possibility. That being so, there's no wonder you feel you don't "know." There's no way you could know, is there?
More importantly, from my perspective, it's not a terribly interesting controversy, except in the case of human beings. For Genesis holds that we are unique in the animal world, a fact which all people tacitly recognize when they do things like science, even if they deny it with their words. So were some kind of actual, inter-species "evolution" eventually to be demonstrated, it would not matter much..it would merely have to do with the question of how long the 'days' in Genesis actually were, or how time operated at the Creation...but theologically, that question carries no real consequence. I can be as open to that as necessary.