in reading existentialist, one gets the negative part,
the existentialist revel in the no.. in the negative,
in the angst, terror, despair, in the no of existence...
but in a no-god world, do we live in the no or can
we live in the yes?
in our modern world, does anybody actually say yes?
and by modern, I mean the nihilistic world we live in...
where our ism's and ideologies are nihilistic...
capitalism, communism, religions such as Catholicism
and Buddhism... are negative, nihilistic...
as is politics and our society/state.. they have no
sense of the word yes, all the modern society can say is no...
no to abortions, no to freedom, no to liberty, no to rights....
the modern, nihilistic world is about no.... and under what context
can we say, yes....
in a no-god world, we can say yes... for we ourselves, determine our
own morals, beliefs, hopes and dreams...
in a no-god world we can seek out the yes of existence...we can say
yes to good, we can say yes to love and we can say yes to hope....
what is good? what is evil? in a no-god world, good and evil are simply,
what is beneficial for us and what is not... but we do not exists
separate or apart from other human beings... we are tribal, social
beings...and we can only find out who we are in social situations...
within the city/state/groups/ part of the pack...
and as part of the social, part of the pack, how can we say, yes?
when others say, I love someone of my sex... we can say yes, when
one wants an abortion, we can say yes... when one wants the freedom
to become who they are, which is to say, they want to overcome
who they currently are, to become a possibility within themselves,
we can say yes....to say yes to our possibilities.. that is part of being
social, part of being within a society.... to seek out and achieve
the possibilities within our lives..
and why has our own society/state today so fragmented and divided?
Because far too many people are saying no, instead of yes...no to being
who you are, no to loving who you want, no to leading your life as you see fit...
good comes from accepting people as they are, not as we want them to be...
evil comes from not accepting people for who they are unless, unless they
fit my own conception of what of what it means to be human.....
evil is forcing people to become something they are not...
homosexuality is considered to be a sin, an evil... but why?
one might say, god said so... but how do we justify being against
homosexuality in a no-god world? that it somehow disrupts the society,
the state...and the evidence is quite clear, that homosexuality actually
helps the state and the society by bring people into the state/society...
if you exclude people from the state/society, why should they help or
even participate within that state or society? inclusion helps the state/
society because it gives people a chance to be part of the state/society...
the more engaged people are with the state/society, the more they
want to help and improve the society/state... because now they
have some ''skin'' in the game... a society where they are not part of,
why would they care if the society or state, succeeds? but being part
of the society/state, gives people some stake in what happens within
that society/state... you want to overcome the acrimony or division
within America today, the answer comes from inclusion, not exclusion....
by giving people a stake in America... the current nihilism of America,
within the economic, the social, the political, is bringing about
the apathy and disinterest American's have for what is happening within
America... If I have no say in America, why would I care what happens
to America? I have no stake and thus no interest in what happens....
and so, we can hold to good as being able to bring people to
having a stake in their lives, politically, socially and economically...
if we say no, then why should people have an interest or a stake
in what happens? preventing homosexuals from loving who they want,
makes them less interested in what happens, not more...
women who can't control their own bodies, they become less
interested in the fate of America, people prevented from voting,
why should they care if America lives or die? they have no say in
any case... so good, is the bringing people into a state/society,
not exclusion, but inclusion.... and evil, is the exclusion of people
from the state/society... good is saying yes, and evil is saying no...
and of course, many here will jump in and say, what about murder or
incest, should we say yes to them... and of course, they are,
once again, jumping to the negative, not the positive...
the nihilism of our age... is the pursuit of the negative...
and saying no....and so I ask, why can't we say yes?
must we always say no?
Kropotkin
the yes and the no....
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
and we return to the negative question raised before...
what about murder or incest or to add a third point,
homosexuality....as some do include homosexuality into an evil like
murder and incest....
why is, specifically murder, an evil? basically, there is no benefit
for murder.... either individually or collectively....
for most people, most, they murder for some sort of benefit..
and those benefits are usually the trinkets of existence,
for money, fame, power, titles or material possessions...
things that add no value to a person's life...empty calories....
and there is no benefit for murder collectively... all murder does
is to create disruptions and chaos within a society or state....
and that includes state sanction murders, capital punishment for
example...there has never been an example of capital punishment
ever stopping or deterring someone from committing a crime...
because in committing a crime, we believe, falsely, that we will
never get caught... ego often allows us to commit crimes...
and in the action of incest, it doesn't benefit anyone...
incest survivors often have immense guilt and feelings of sin,
for years if not decades after the action....and it doesn't benefit
the one instigating the incest.. sex is a short lived act with
very long term implications...and it too brings about guilt
and remorse and shame in the instigator of incest...
there is no positive in incest... (and I learned this in reading
about incest participants, both victims and instigators)
there is no positive in the action of murder/capital punishment
and incest... but in homosexuality, there is a positive...
the act of love is a positive, both individually and collectively...
just as a man and a women in joining together as a couple, helps
bring about stability within a society/state, homosexual couples
too bring about stability within a society/state and for the exact
same reasons....there is no negative in the actions of being homosexual...
seeking out love is a positive that is best promoted by the state
and a society....
so, we can, by seeking out the positive and negative of an action,
for us individually and collectively, discover if an action is
a yes or a no.....we are if we are to be successful, both
individually and collectively, be held accountable and responsible for
our actions... but those actions must be negative actions for our
accountability... positive actions don't need to be found
accountable, they are positive actions and need to be praised....
as a man, who married a woman, I don't need to be held accountable
for my actions of creating a family and a home... my actions were
positive, not negative...just as a man who marries another man,
doesn't need to be held accountable for their actions because
those actions helped create a family and a home...
a positive action, not a negative action...
whereas murder and incest creates/is a negative action...
it doesn't benefit anyone, individually or collectively...
and so, it should be rejected....
Kropotkin
what about murder or incest or to add a third point,
homosexuality....as some do include homosexuality into an evil like
murder and incest....
why is, specifically murder, an evil? basically, there is no benefit
for murder.... either individually or collectively....
for most people, most, they murder for some sort of benefit..
and those benefits are usually the trinkets of existence,
for money, fame, power, titles or material possessions...
things that add no value to a person's life...empty calories....
and there is no benefit for murder collectively... all murder does
is to create disruptions and chaos within a society or state....
and that includes state sanction murders, capital punishment for
example...there has never been an example of capital punishment
ever stopping or deterring someone from committing a crime...
because in committing a crime, we believe, falsely, that we will
never get caught... ego often allows us to commit crimes...
and in the action of incest, it doesn't benefit anyone...
incest survivors often have immense guilt and feelings of sin,
for years if not decades after the action....and it doesn't benefit
the one instigating the incest.. sex is a short lived act with
very long term implications...and it too brings about guilt
and remorse and shame in the instigator of incest...
there is no positive in incest... (and I learned this in reading
about incest participants, both victims and instigators)
there is no positive in the action of murder/capital punishment
and incest... but in homosexuality, there is a positive...
the act of love is a positive, both individually and collectively...
just as a man and a women in joining together as a couple, helps
bring about stability within a society/state, homosexual couples
too bring about stability within a society/state and for the exact
same reasons....there is no negative in the actions of being homosexual...
seeking out love is a positive that is best promoted by the state
and a society....
so, we can, by seeking out the positive and negative of an action,
for us individually and collectively, discover if an action is
a yes or a no.....we are if we are to be successful, both
individually and collectively, be held accountable and responsible for
our actions... but those actions must be negative actions for our
accountability... positive actions don't need to be found
accountable, they are positive actions and need to be praised....
as a man, who married a woman, I don't need to be held accountable
for my actions of creating a family and a home... my actions were
positive, not negative...just as a man who marries another man,
doesn't need to be held accountable for their actions because
those actions helped create a family and a home...
a positive action, not a negative action...
whereas murder and incest creates/is a negative action...
it doesn't benefit anyone, individually or collectively...
and so, it should be rejected....
Kropotkin
Re: the yes and the no....
Murder is an effective way to solve problems if you don't take into account the moral and ethical side.
There is a person, there is a problem, there is no person, there is no problem.
So I don't think it will be that easy to ban, I mean unofficially.
There is a person, there is a problem, there is no person, there is no problem.
So I don't think it will be that easy to ban, I mean unofficially.
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
K: in fact, if you think about it, murder is not a very effective way
to solve any problem... think of a problem.. my older brother
stands between me and my inheritance... this is a pursuit
of wealth... and wealth doesn't bring about happiness or love
or any tangible thing worth having....
(material possessions? or fame or titles..
ah, they are short-lived, temporary.. material possessions are
temporary, as is wealth and fame and titles and power, none
of these things have any sort of permanent value.. they are
transitory in nature and if we think any differently, we are not
thinking very clearly... one cannot put a price on the really
valuable things in life, like love or happiness or contentment
or the contemplation of what it means to be human)
and murder can't bring us these valuable values like love
or happiness or contentment.... the values that count...
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
one of the yes/no problems is this question of what
kind of future you want....
and that comes down to your own understanding of what it means to
be human...if human beings are as conservatives paint them, then
human beings are irrational, solitary, evil, unable to change,
focused on achieving one's goal regardless of the cost to other human beings,
selfish... the conservative view of human beings is really quite negative...
it believes in the worst of human beings, not the best in human beings...
conservatives believe in god/dictators because human beings are inherently
evil and selfish and the only way to control that inherent evil, is by a god
or a dictator...
and from this inherent belief in the evil of man, the future will always
look bad or be negative in the eyes of a conservative....how can one have
a positive, happy future with inherently evil people? one of the inherent
beliefs in conservatives is that people cannot, even, change their nature...
once born evil, they will die evil, with no possibility of ever changing that
state.... of course, no self respecting conservative will ever put themselves
into the evil category.. everyone else is evil, never them...and this impacts
the future in terms of how they conceive government and the law...
off with their head seems to be the conservative first response...
(except for Jan 6 insurrectionists, and suddenly its government overreach,
this is called situational ethics, the situation dictates the ethic)
as the MAGA and many conservatives are openly calling for a dictatorship,
that tells us their view of human nature... thy is evil, but me, and others
who think like me, look like me, they are, by definition, good...
and this impacts the type of future they envision.... Nazi Germany
is pretty much their vision of the future....complete with
concentration camps and death squads.. the vision of
a conservative is a negative vision of the present and
a negative vision of what is possible for us...
but my vision of what people are, is completely different
and so I say no, no to the conservative vision of what human beings are....
I hold that people can change, that a society can change, that we are not
fixed into any kind of thoughts or behavior... we can and must impact
the present and the future.. a conservatives hold that the future is fixed
and set and nothing can change it...
I disagree....change is not only possible but desirable...
one, the conservative believes that human beings are eternally
fixed, and yet, they are not....my own thoughts and beliefs have changed
over these many years... what I once thought as true and right, is no
longer true or right... age has given me wisdom into the nature of
human beings...the act of being evil, that is a choice.. serial killers
kill, but they too have a choice to say, no, no today I won't kill....
but they claim that killing is an addiction, something that they
must do, like those who can't quite smoking... but
smokers can quit, drug addicts can quit... drinkers can quit...
we see this all the time...it takes effort and time, but
one can quit any addiction with the will to do so...
human beings, even at their worst, can change, they
can make the choice to say no....nothing in our behavior,
is a must do... we are programmed to the basic necessities of
existence, in that we must seek out love and self esteem and
safety/security... those are baked into a human being,
but actions freely taken are not....addiction are actions
freely taken...one can say no...(now before I am attacked,
I came from a family of alcoholics, and family members having
recovered from drug addictions, and they can still say no, if
they have the will to do so, it is tough, but not impossible)
and so the future I envision is one where we have choices to say
yes or no, as the situation calls for.. where the state, the government
is an impartial judge for the people...where we are given the chance
and opportunity to change, who we are and what is possible for us....
a true government of the people, for the people, by the people...
not as we have today, where we have government of the company,
for the company, by the company....a corporatocracy,
not a democracy...a government that is far more flexible and
changeable than we have today.... as events change, we must
be able to change and adapt with those new conditions...
as so constituted today, we are unable to do that with the
governmental structure we have today...
my vision of the future is a future where everyone, everyone
has the chance to become, to overcome who they are and
chase their own possibilities... to become who they are...
with their own choices.... to say, I am today, a liar and a thief,
but I can change who I am and become an honest person...
I have that choice.... and to take that choice to heart...
to say yes... to our possibilities....
Kropotkin
kind of future you want....
and that comes down to your own understanding of what it means to
be human...if human beings are as conservatives paint them, then
human beings are irrational, solitary, evil, unable to change,
focused on achieving one's goal regardless of the cost to other human beings,
selfish... the conservative view of human beings is really quite negative...
it believes in the worst of human beings, not the best in human beings...
conservatives believe in god/dictators because human beings are inherently
evil and selfish and the only way to control that inherent evil, is by a god
or a dictator...
and from this inherent belief in the evil of man, the future will always
look bad or be negative in the eyes of a conservative....how can one have
a positive, happy future with inherently evil people? one of the inherent
beliefs in conservatives is that people cannot, even, change their nature...
once born evil, they will die evil, with no possibility of ever changing that
state.... of course, no self respecting conservative will ever put themselves
into the evil category.. everyone else is evil, never them...and this impacts
the future in terms of how they conceive government and the law...
off with their head seems to be the conservative first response...
(except for Jan 6 insurrectionists, and suddenly its government overreach,
this is called situational ethics, the situation dictates the ethic)
as the MAGA and many conservatives are openly calling for a dictatorship,
that tells us their view of human nature... thy is evil, but me, and others
who think like me, look like me, they are, by definition, good...
and this impacts the type of future they envision.... Nazi Germany
is pretty much their vision of the future....complete with
concentration camps and death squads.. the vision of
a conservative is a negative vision of the present and
a negative vision of what is possible for us...
but my vision of what people are, is completely different
and so I say no, no to the conservative vision of what human beings are....
I hold that people can change, that a society can change, that we are not
fixed into any kind of thoughts or behavior... we can and must impact
the present and the future.. a conservatives hold that the future is fixed
and set and nothing can change it...
I disagree....change is not only possible but desirable...
one, the conservative believes that human beings are eternally
fixed, and yet, they are not....my own thoughts and beliefs have changed
over these many years... what I once thought as true and right, is no
longer true or right... age has given me wisdom into the nature of
human beings...the act of being evil, that is a choice.. serial killers
kill, but they too have a choice to say, no, no today I won't kill....
but they claim that killing is an addiction, something that they
must do, like those who can't quite smoking... but
smokers can quit, drug addicts can quit... drinkers can quit...
we see this all the time...it takes effort and time, but
one can quit any addiction with the will to do so...
human beings, even at their worst, can change, they
can make the choice to say no....nothing in our behavior,
is a must do... we are programmed to the basic necessities of
existence, in that we must seek out love and self esteem and
safety/security... those are baked into a human being,
but actions freely taken are not....addiction are actions
freely taken...one can say no...(now before I am attacked,
I came from a family of alcoholics, and family members having
recovered from drug addictions, and they can still say no, if
they have the will to do so, it is tough, but not impossible)
and so the future I envision is one where we have choices to say
yes or no, as the situation calls for.. where the state, the government
is an impartial judge for the people...where we are given the chance
and opportunity to change, who we are and what is possible for us....
a true government of the people, for the people, by the people...
not as we have today, where we have government of the company,
for the company, by the company....a corporatocracy,
not a democracy...a government that is far more flexible and
changeable than we have today.... as events change, we must
be able to change and adapt with those new conditions...
as so constituted today, we are unable to do that with the
governmental structure we have today...
my vision of the future is a future where everyone, everyone
has the chance to become, to overcome who they are and
chase their own possibilities... to become who they are...
with their own choices.... to say, I am today, a liar and a thief,
but I can change who I am and become an honest person...
I have that choice.... and to take that choice to heart...
to say yes... to our possibilities....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
what is the root of all human beings?
What is it that connects all human beings to each other?
not that we are physically similar to each other...
no, we are united in our needs.... every human being
has a need for love, and safety/security and self esteem
and the biological needs of food and water and shelter...
it is our needs that connects us to each other...my needs
are the same as your needs...without love or the possibility
of love or hope, we become depressed and lose the will to
live... it is as important as food and water to us....
as that connection is our needs, that is what we must create
in our state/ and society.... the government's reason for existence is
to help us reach our needs... that is the entire point of government...
to make it possible for us to reach and gain our needs...
the biological imperatives that we have no choice over...
we must eat and we must have water and we must have clean
air and we must have, as much as air or water, love and hope
and justice.... without those possibilities, we lose our will
to life...
unlike many others, I see a positive future if, if we overcome
what appears to us today, as a fixed and set, society and people...
if we accept and understand that we are not set or fixed,
that we can change and change is desirable...
then we can become our possibilities... we can become
who we really are.. and we can choose who we are....
Kropotkin
What is it that connects all human beings to each other?
not that we are physically similar to each other...
no, we are united in our needs.... every human being
has a need for love, and safety/security and self esteem
and the biological needs of food and water and shelter...
it is our needs that connects us to each other...my needs
are the same as your needs...without love or the possibility
of love or hope, we become depressed and lose the will to
live... it is as important as food and water to us....
as that connection is our needs, that is what we must create
in our state/ and society.... the government's reason for existence is
to help us reach our needs... that is the entire point of government...
to make it possible for us to reach and gain our needs...
the biological imperatives that we have no choice over...
we must eat and we must have water and we must have clean
air and we must have, as much as air or water, love and hope
and justice.... without those possibilities, we lose our will
to life...
unlike many others, I see a positive future if, if we overcome
what appears to us today, as a fixed and set, society and people...
if we accept and understand that we are not set or fixed,
that we can change and change is desirable...
then we can become our possibilities... we can become
who we really are.. and we can choose who we are....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
one of the things that existentialists comment on, is
the fear that people have about being free....
that having freedom is what terrifies people... for
from freedom comes the possibility of failure and
disgrace...
but the question becomes, is freedom something to fear or something
to grasp for? Unlike conservatives, I have an optimistic belief in
freedom... that we should be free to act as human beings...
to engage in our possibilities as human beings...
with this said, is freedom unlimited? of course not...
we do not have absolute freedom, to be or to act...
everything has a limit... as does freedom...
but within being human lies enough freedom for us to act...
we are free to seek out our possibilities...we are free to become
who we are... be it an athlete or a world traveler or
seek out our own individual possibilities... my own admitted
possibility is to become the greatest philosopher ever...
will I succeed? that will be decided long after I am dead...
so I continue to write and think and engage in the possibility
that available to me, of philosophy...whether or not, anyone
reads me...... I believe I write for the future... not today...
today, no one understand what I am getting at, and that is ok...
the point is to achieve what is possible for me, not to fear it or escape
from that.... I seek out my own freedom to become who I am...
and that is, a philosopher... and whether or not anyone ''gets''
me, is irrelevant....
I am free and thus I am a human being.... and that is one path
to becoming human... to embrace my own possibilities...
the path of becoming human for you is to embrace your own
possibilities.. to be free is to be human... to have choice,
is to be human.... it is not something to fear, but something
to embrace....for it means you are human....
Kropotkin
the fear that people have about being free....
that having freedom is what terrifies people... for
from freedom comes the possibility of failure and
disgrace...
but the question becomes, is freedom something to fear or something
to grasp for? Unlike conservatives, I have an optimistic belief in
freedom... that we should be free to act as human beings...
to engage in our possibilities as human beings...
with this said, is freedom unlimited? of course not...
we do not have absolute freedom, to be or to act...
everything has a limit... as does freedom...
but within being human lies enough freedom for us to act...
we are free to seek out our possibilities...we are free to become
who we are... be it an athlete or a world traveler or
seek out our own individual possibilities... my own admitted
possibility is to become the greatest philosopher ever...
will I succeed? that will be decided long after I am dead...
so I continue to write and think and engage in the possibility
that available to me, of philosophy...whether or not, anyone
reads me...... I believe I write for the future... not today...
today, no one understand what I am getting at, and that is ok...
the point is to achieve what is possible for me, not to fear it or escape
from that.... I seek out my own freedom to become who I am...
and that is, a philosopher... and whether or not anyone ''gets''
me, is irrelevant....
I am free and thus I am a human being.... and that is one path
to becoming human... to embrace my own possibilities...
the path of becoming human for you is to embrace your own
possibilities.. to be free is to be human... to have choice,
is to be human.... it is not something to fear, but something
to embrace....for it means you are human....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
the point of the Enlightenment was to bring about
a more ''rational'' vision of a human being....
that we use logic and reason and rationalism to
govern life and the state....both the declaration of
Independence and the US constitution are Enlightenment documents...
created by men completely committed to the Enlightenment ideals...
and that fact is often forgotten by those who came after....
but today, in the age after Freud, we have become attuned to
the unconscious... those mysterious forces that control the
''underworld'' as it is...just as there is an individual unconscious,
there is a collective unconscious....forces that has dramatically impacted
all of us.... the events like Perl Harbor, the multiple assassinations of 60's,
JFK, RFK, MLK, the entire Vietnam war... then in the 70's, we have
Watergate and the Nixon debacle... Individual events that impacted
the collective vision of Americans... and of course more recent is 9/11,
and the entire trauma of IQ45.. of Jan 6, the attempted overthrow of
the American government... these events have impacted and will continue
to impact our collective unconscious.....
and the collective unconscious allows for us to claim that when we
are afraid, we can be violent and even kill others.... but that is nonsense...
we have a choice to react with peace or to react with violence....
and because we are still tied to the animal in us, we usually react
with violence.. police officers us this one a lot, I was in fear of my
life and that justifies my killing another... no, no it doesn't...
a police officer is a well trained person with superior weapons
with a large back up force... the idea that a police officer can feel
in fear for their lives given their superior weapons and training,
does anyone really accept this?
and this collective belief that if we fear for our lives, that
we can commit any crime is false.... and everyday costs innocent
civilians their lives...
and this brings us back to the Enlightenment.... to overcome
this fear we collectively have... the rise of IQ45 is powerful
evidence that we are driven by fear in America today...
for all he and the entire conservative movement have is fear....
they have nothing else to run on.... be afraid of everything is
the new model of existence...the new path of human beings....
but as a child of the Enlightenment, I reject this approach...for
fear is an emotion of evolution.. we have evolved to have fear
to protect us from enemies... and the entire point of evolution
is to continue to grow and evolve...and as Nietzsche pointed out,
that we are on a journey... from animal to animal/human, where
we are now, to becoming completely human.. where we need to go....
and in becoming human, we must move beyond the basic evolution
of fear and hate and anger... and we must become human by
the practice of controlling our anger and hate and fear....to
move from the animal side, the unconscious side of us, into
the practice of reason and logic... for that is what it means to
be human... not to reject the unconscious, but to control it,
to contain it from leaping into fear and hate and anger...
the average MAGA person is one who allows their fear and hate,
to overcome their beliefs... they are acting as animals... allowing
the unconscious to control their actions...
the more we can control our animal side, the hate and anger,
the closer to becoming human... the real journey in life is to move
from acting from the unconscious, the animal side of us to becoming
human... where we control the emotions and unconscious side of us...
I can choose to react from fear or I can let fear overcome my emotions
and actions... are we animals that allow our emotions to control us,
or are we humans, that control our emotions?
and that is the real meaning of the Enlightenment...
the journey to becoming human is the journey to
stay in control of our emotions and unconscious...
and that path is the path of logic and reason....
to say yes, yes to becoming human or to say yes to
becoming more animal.. yes or no... that is the question...
and then to extend that yes or no, into who we are collectively...
for we are not just one, we are a society, a collective...
and what yes shall we say to, as a community?
Kropotkin
a more ''rational'' vision of a human being....
that we use logic and reason and rationalism to
govern life and the state....both the declaration of
Independence and the US constitution are Enlightenment documents...
created by men completely committed to the Enlightenment ideals...
and that fact is often forgotten by those who came after....
but today, in the age after Freud, we have become attuned to
the unconscious... those mysterious forces that control the
''underworld'' as it is...just as there is an individual unconscious,
there is a collective unconscious....forces that has dramatically impacted
all of us.... the events like Perl Harbor, the multiple assassinations of 60's,
JFK, RFK, MLK, the entire Vietnam war... then in the 70's, we have
Watergate and the Nixon debacle... Individual events that impacted
the collective vision of Americans... and of course more recent is 9/11,
and the entire trauma of IQ45.. of Jan 6, the attempted overthrow of
the American government... these events have impacted and will continue
to impact our collective unconscious.....
and the collective unconscious allows for us to claim that when we
are afraid, we can be violent and even kill others.... but that is nonsense...
we have a choice to react with peace or to react with violence....
and because we are still tied to the animal in us, we usually react
with violence.. police officers us this one a lot, I was in fear of my
life and that justifies my killing another... no, no it doesn't...
a police officer is a well trained person with superior weapons
with a large back up force... the idea that a police officer can feel
in fear for their lives given their superior weapons and training,
does anyone really accept this?
and this collective belief that if we fear for our lives, that
we can commit any crime is false.... and everyday costs innocent
civilians their lives...
and this brings us back to the Enlightenment.... to overcome
this fear we collectively have... the rise of IQ45 is powerful
evidence that we are driven by fear in America today...
for all he and the entire conservative movement have is fear....
they have nothing else to run on.... be afraid of everything is
the new model of existence...the new path of human beings....
but as a child of the Enlightenment, I reject this approach...for
fear is an emotion of evolution.. we have evolved to have fear
to protect us from enemies... and the entire point of evolution
is to continue to grow and evolve...and as Nietzsche pointed out,
that we are on a journey... from animal to animal/human, where
we are now, to becoming completely human.. where we need to go....
and in becoming human, we must move beyond the basic evolution
of fear and hate and anger... and we must become human by
the practice of controlling our anger and hate and fear....to
move from the animal side, the unconscious side of us, into
the practice of reason and logic... for that is what it means to
be human... not to reject the unconscious, but to control it,
to contain it from leaping into fear and hate and anger...
the average MAGA person is one who allows their fear and hate,
to overcome their beliefs... they are acting as animals... allowing
the unconscious to control their actions...
the more we can control our animal side, the hate and anger,
the closer to becoming human... the real journey in life is to move
from acting from the unconscious, the animal side of us to becoming
human... where we control the emotions and unconscious side of us...
I can choose to react from fear or I can let fear overcome my emotions
and actions... are we animals that allow our emotions to control us,
or are we humans, that control our emotions?
and that is the real meaning of the Enlightenment...
the journey to becoming human is the journey to
stay in control of our emotions and unconscious...
and that path is the path of logic and reason....
to say yes, yes to becoming human or to say yes to
becoming more animal.. yes or no... that is the question...
and then to extend that yes or no, into who we are collectively...
for we are not just one, we are a society, a collective...
and what yes shall we say to, as a community?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
we have the yes and the no, in rationality/reason vs emotionalism/the
Romantic....
in the rational belief, what actually prevents the world from being
a rational place? Why were the Greeks wrong in thinking that the
universe is a rational, knowable place?
it comes down to the problem of chance and randomness....
so much of existence is random, unpredictable, and we have no
possibility of making that randomness, unpredictability rational or
reasonable...what make the world unknowable is the random nature
of existence...we cannot, (as yet) find a way to organize or predict
random, chaotic actions or events... and that defeats any possibility
of seeing the world as being rational or logical....
and what about the Romantic/emotional vision of the world,
what prevents that vision of being, from being right?
that the world is just rational enough, given how numbers seem
to describe the world, in parts anyway, that we can't totally
accept the world as being a Romantic one....there is a rationality
or reason to the world...cause and effect still work...and this prevents
us from accepting the world as a romantic world.... full of emotions
and feelings...
so, we cannot accept the world as being a rational world and we
cannot accept the world as being a romantic world, so, what
exactly do we have?
a little of both with chance and randomness, chaos being a part of
the world...and we cannot, think of what percentage being chance
or what percentage being Romantic or what percentage being
rational? We simple can't think that way... for it is unknowable...
But we know that randomness and chance play a factor in the world,
they just can't be predicted ahead of time...there is no theory that
will allow us to predict when a random act will occurr.....
there are just too many variables to prevent us from understanding
when a random or chance event will occurr.....
and does this argument of randomness/chance, change in any way,
the idealism vs materialism argument that has existed since Plato?
the world lies within our minds eye or the world is just materialism?
well, chance and randomness certainly isn't a thing in the mind,
and it isn't something that is a part of matter, but it impacts both....
a random event can change our thoughts about something and
a random event can change our understanding of objects, materials....
so, it seems that our random, chaotic universe can impact both sides
of the equation...on one side of the equation is idealism...
and the other side, matter... and randomness lays somewhere in the middle...
or perhaps even outside of idealism and outside of matter????????????
Kropotkin
Romantic....
in the rational belief, what actually prevents the world from being
a rational place? Why were the Greeks wrong in thinking that the
universe is a rational, knowable place?
it comes down to the problem of chance and randomness....
so much of existence is random, unpredictable, and we have no
possibility of making that randomness, unpredictability rational or
reasonable...what make the world unknowable is the random nature
of existence...we cannot, (as yet) find a way to organize or predict
random, chaotic actions or events... and that defeats any possibility
of seeing the world as being rational or logical....
and what about the Romantic/emotional vision of the world,
what prevents that vision of being, from being right?
that the world is just rational enough, given how numbers seem
to describe the world, in parts anyway, that we can't totally
accept the world as being a Romantic one....there is a rationality
or reason to the world...cause and effect still work...and this prevents
us from accepting the world as a romantic world.... full of emotions
and feelings...
so, we cannot accept the world as being a rational world and we
cannot accept the world as being a romantic world, so, what
exactly do we have?
a little of both with chance and randomness, chaos being a part of
the world...and we cannot, think of what percentage being chance
or what percentage being Romantic or what percentage being
rational? We simple can't think that way... for it is unknowable...
But we know that randomness and chance play a factor in the world,
they just can't be predicted ahead of time...there is no theory that
will allow us to predict when a random act will occurr.....
there are just too many variables to prevent us from understanding
when a random or chance event will occurr.....
and does this argument of randomness/chance, change in any way,
the idealism vs materialism argument that has existed since Plato?
the world lies within our minds eye or the world is just materialism?
well, chance and randomness certainly isn't a thing in the mind,
and it isn't something that is a part of matter, but it impacts both....
a random event can change our thoughts about something and
a random event can change our understanding of objects, materials....
so, it seems that our random, chaotic universe can impact both sides
of the equation...on one side of the equation is idealism...
and the other side, matter... and randomness lays somewhere in the middle...
or perhaps even outside of idealism and outside of matter????????????
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
let us follow through this thought with a look at
other aspects of philosophy....
epistemology...the theory of knowledge, especially with
regards too its methods, validity and scope....
Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes
justified belief from opinion....
how does this fit into what we already ''know'' about the world?
that all matter and events of this world are impacted by chance
and randomness.... that no matter how hard we try, we cannot,
cannot ever gain enough information to completely know a subject....
in other words, we just can't get all the information necessary for
the understanding of a subject.... all information is by its very nature,
is incomplete... and which information that we are missing is by its
nature, chance, random, we cannot know which information we
are missing because that is random... our knowledge of epistemology
is limited, we can never know what knowledge we are missing because
that knowledge is missing by chance, randomness..
our knowledge of ethics/morals is also limited by the same reasons..
we simply cannot get all the facts necessary to make a judgement
about what is ethical and what is not.. what makes an action
ethical or moral and what makes an action unethical, immoral?
the exact same action is seen differently depending on who is doing
it and why they are doing it.... a soldier kills someone and they
may get a medal, a policeman shoots a civilian, and they may get
jail time and they may not...that choice is often dictated by
chance and randomness... and a person shooting someone,
that may or may not get jail time, again depending.. some
DA's may prosecute and some may not...which is done by chance
and randomness...laws change all the time and what is legal may
become illegal overnight...and what is illegal today maybe legal
tomorrow....if when an action takes place determines its guilt
or innocence, or where an action takes place decides guilt or
innocence, then guilt or innocence is itself random, and is by chance....
and metaphysics.... that metaphysics itself is random and full of chance,
cannot be denied....in the justification of god, it is often said that
the will of god, works in mysterious ways.... random ways...
and lacking the overall understanding of the ''plan of god'',
we cannot know what the plan is, and its random nature...
and political philosophy? that too is full of chance and randomness....
if a plan were to work or fail, that is often quite random
and quite unpredictable....
in other words, every single aspect of philosophy, every single
area/branches of philosophy has, at its heart, randomness
and chance... also we never have all the information necessary
to ever complete or totally understand any given branch of
philosophy... at best, we might know/understand a part of
any branch of philosophy, but we cannot know everything
necessary to enable us to fully know a subject or even guess
at its full extent... at every turn, in every subject, we can
only know a fraction of it, and in some subjects, we know
very little about it.... what we don't know is larger than
what we do know, about a great many subjects...
Kropotkin
other aspects of philosophy....
epistemology...the theory of knowledge, especially with
regards too its methods, validity and scope....
Epistemology is the investigation of what distinguishes
justified belief from opinion....
how does this fit into what we already ''know'' about the world?
that all matter and events of this world are impacted by chance
and randomness.... that no matter how hard we try, we cannot,
cannot ever gain enough information to completely know a subject....
in other words, we just can't get all the information necessary for
the understanding of a subject.... all information is by its very nature,
is incomplete... and which information that we are missing is by its
nature, chance, random, we cannot know which information we
are missing because that is random... our knowledge of epistemology
is limited, we can never know what knowledge we are missing because
that knowledge is missing by chance, randomness..
our knowledge of ethics/morals is also limited by the same reasons..
we simply cannot get all the facts necessary to make a judgement
about what is ethical and what is not.. what makes an action
ethical or moral and what makes an action unethical, immoral?
the exact same action is seen differently depending on who is doing
it and why they are doing it.... a soldier kills someone and they
may get a medal, a policeman shoots a civilian, and they may get
jail time and they may not...that choice is often dictated by
chance and randomness... and a person shooting someone,
that may or may not get jail time, again depending.. some
DA's may prosecute and some may not...which is done by chance
and randomness...laws change all the time and what is legal may
become illegal overnight...and what is illegal today maybe legal
tomorrow....if when an action takes place determines its guilt
or innocence, or where an action takes place decides guilt or
innocence, then guilt or innocence is itself random, and is by chance....
and metaphysics.... that metaphysics itself is random and full of chance,
cannot be denied....in the justification of god, it is often said that
the will of god, works in mysterious ways.... random ways...
and lacking the overall understanding of the ''plan of god'',
we cannot know what the plan is, and its random nature...
and political philosophy? that too is full of chance and randomness....
if a plan were to work or fail, that is often quite random
and quite unpredictable....
in other words, every single aspect of philosophy, every single
area/branches of philosophy has, at its heart, randomness
and chance... also we never have all the information necessary
to ever complete or totally understand any given branch of
philosophy... at best, we might know/understand a part of
any branch of philosophy, but we cannot know everything
necessary to enable us to fully know a subject or even guess
at its full extent... at every turn, in every subject, we can
only know a fraction of it, and in some subjects, we know
very little about it.... what we don't know is larger than
what we do know, about a great many subjects...
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1748
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the yes and the no....
the yes and the no....
many here in this site are Christians... and that is fine...
however, with that said let us explore some aspects of that....
here in America, and I am only talking about the American experience...
we have an unprecedented situation..... we have running for
President of the United States, an admitted serial assaulter of
women.. and found guilty of rape... and by definition, if one sexual
assaults a women, that is adultery.. having sex outside of marriage...
and IQ45 has openly admitted many sexual assaults.. or have you
forgotten the access Hollywood tape where he admits to multiple
times ''grabbing them by the pussy'' and by doing so, that sexual assault...
and yet, by these acts of sexual assault and rape, for the most part,
the Christian right has supported IQ45.. and voted for him in large
numbers in both presidential elections he was in....
the question becomes, how does one reconcile being a Christian, and still
support someone who has openly admitted sexual assault and rape and
adultery?
the answer seems to lie in the fact that those Christians cannot or will not
examine their beliefs and how it actually works in the real world....
the bottom line is this, you cannot support IQ45 and still call
yourself a Christian...
but this leads us to the bigger question of the many times that we
engage with or support people, events, objects that are the opposite
of our proclaimed values... is it ignorance or just plain denial that
allows a person to promote values/people/events/ objects that
are the opposite of their proclaimed values and beliefs....
again, people who say they are pro-life and yet support
an ism that has and will continue to murder its citizens in
the name of money/profits....that ism, is capitalism.....
but those supporters of capitalism always wind up blaming
the victim as being weak or unable to ''make it'' but
being weak or unable to make it, is still about a human
beings life...and that means we must, must if we are Christian,
to follow the path of being pro-life, no matter where it leads us...
or what events or people happen to be around... to be actually fair,
if we were to correctly follow the bible, then because IQ45 has committed
adultery, he should be, according to the bible, be stoned to death...
if we were following the bible....
but again, people don't actually follow their beliefs...they hold
to being Christian because it is socially convenient or what is
expected of them... not because they actually follow the laws of
god, or hold to Christianity as a ''way of life'' which is exactly
the way Jesus said we should hold to being a Christian...
well, to be strictly true, he said that Jews should hold the line
at the laws of god... recall that both Jesus and Paul were Jews.
strict and devote Jews... Jesus said, " I came to obey the law,
not to destroy it"' and the law he was referring to was Jewish law,
not Christain law because that didn't exist for decades after he died.
so, so we return.... we have beliefs that we hold dear and ''faiths'' that
we act upon and I believe that most of those beliefs and ''faiths'' are
not being followed as a ''way of life'', that for most people, belief
and faiths are really just lip service to an ideal that no longer exists...
like the Christian religion... mostly just lip service to ideals
that are no longer believed in...and one path to a better future
will be when we honestly, honestly think about our values and
beliefs and admit to ourselves, that for the most part,
we hold to beliefs and values that we don't and haven't believed in
before......an honest reevaluation of values will reveal to us,
that most of our current beliefs and faiths, are just lip service to
those ideals...nothing more....
Kropotkin
many here in this site are Christians... and that is fine...
however, with that said let us explore some aspects of that....
here in America, and I am only talking about the American experience...
we have an unprecedented situation..... we have running for
President of the United States, an admitted serial assaulter of
women.. and found guilty of rape... and by definition, if one sexual
assaults a women, that is adultery.. having sex outside of marriage...
and IQ45 has openly admitted many sexual assaults.. or have you
forgotten the access Hollywood tape where he admits to multiple
times ''grabbing them by the pussy'' and by doing so, that sexual assault...
and yet, by these acts of sexual assault and rape, for the most part,
the Christian right has supported IQ45.. and voted for him in large
numbers in both presidential elections he was in....
the question becomes, how does one reconcile being a Christian, and still
support someone who has openly admitted sexual assault and rape and
adultery?
the answer seems to lie in the fact that those Christians cannot or will not
examine their beliefs and how it actually works in the real world....
the bottom line is this, you cannot support IQ45 and still call
yourself a Christian...
but this leads us to the bigger question of the many times that we
engage with or support people, events, objects that are the opposite
of our proclaimed values... is it ignorance or just plain denial that
allows a person to promote values/people/events/ objects that
are the opposite of their proclaimed values and beliefs....
again, people who say they are pro-life and yet support
an ism that has and will continue to murder its citizens in
the name of money/profits....that ism, is capitalism.....
but those supporters of capitalism always wind up blaming
the victim as being weak or unable to ''make it'' but
being weak or unable to make it, is still about a human
beings life...and that means we must, must if we are Christian,
to follow the path of being pro-life, no matter where it leads us...
or what events or people happen to be around... to be actually fair,
if we were to correctly follow the bible, then because IQ45 has committed
adultery, he should be, according to the bible, be stoned to death...
if we were following the bible....
but again, people don't actually follow their beliefs...they hold
to being Christian because it is socially convenient or what is
expected of them... not because they actually follow the laws of
god, or hold to Christianity as a ''way of life'' which is exactly
the way Jesus said we should hold to being a Christian...
well, to be strictly true, he said that Jews should hold the line
at the laws of god... recall that both Jesus and Paul were Jews.
strict and devote Jews... Jesus said, " I came to obey the law,
not to destroy it"' and the law he was referring to was Jewish law,
not Christain law because that didn't exist for decades after he died.
so, so we return.... we have beliefs that we hold dear and ''faiths'' that
we act upon and I believe that most of those beliefs and ''faiths'' are
not being followed as a ''way of life'', that for most people, belief
and faiths are really just lip service to an ideal that no longer exists...
like the Christian religion... mostly just lip service to ideals
that are no longer believed in...and one path to a better future
will be when we honestly, honestly think about our values and
beliefs and admit to ourselves, that for the most part,
we hold to beliefs and values that we don't and haven't believed in
before......an honest reevaluation of values will reveal to us,
that most of our current beliefs and faiths, are just lip service to
those ideals...nothing more....
Kropotkin