Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 12:16 pmNo, you have definitely upped your game.
Sex and gender
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Sex and gender
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Sex and gender
Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:43 pmI'm probably less "woke" than you are; I certainly don't get enraged by as many things as you seem to, and I've never been one to have an all or nothing view of things; very few issues have only one clear-cut side to them. Maybe I would be funnier if I put as much effort into it as you put into being grumpy.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:19 pmActually you were just funny before. Now you are not. As you've got woker you've got less likeable and more offensive. Funny that.
Re: Sex and gender
And it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:26 pmSaying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:11 pmYes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:54 pm
But by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Sex and gender
Seems to me you are the one having a 'temper tantrum'. Patronising prik.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:59 pmAnd it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:26 pmSaying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:11 pm
Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.
Re: Sex and gender
vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:47 pmSmarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?
Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.
Re: Sex and gender
I wondered what you would end up calling me.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:02 pmSeems to me you are the one having a 'temper tantrum'. Patronising prik.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:59 pmAnd it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:26 pm
Saying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.
- vegetariantaxidermy
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Re: Sex and gender
'Involved' in what? I can't stand either of you. You really don't have to repsond to me. It's not going to go well for you if you keep this up.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:07 pmvegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:47 pmSmarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.
Do you have any counterarguments to my points on this topic or not? If not then there's really nothing more to discuss.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Sex and gender
I'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian...I am, by all the definitions of what that is. You are not delusional when you think of yourself as a curmudgeonly male; you are what you think you are, no doubt.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:11 pmYes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:54 pmBut by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?
But if I think I'm a cat, I'm delusional. Or if I think I'm a woman -- or at least pretend to think I am -- then I'm delusional, and possibly trying to enforce my delusional thinking on you, as well.
The difference between a delusion and a truth is its relationship to that thing we call "reality."
Re: Sex and gender
Oh dear. IC has already promised me hell, I wonder what you have up your sleeve. Actually, I didn't respond to you; it was you who butted into a conversation I was having with IC. Just saying.vegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:14 pm'Involved' in what? I can't stand either of you. You really don't have to repsond to me. It's not going to go well for you if you keep this up.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:07 pmvegetariantaxidermy wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 6:47 pm
Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.
No, I don't have any counter arguments, and I agree we have nothing to discuss.Do you have any counterarguments to my points on this topic or not? If not then there's really nothing more to discuss.
Re: Sex and gender
Well that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:23 pmI'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian..Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:11 pmYes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 3:54 pm
But by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?
Well it appears I was deluding myself about that until I was well and truly outcurmudgeoned on this very thread.You are not delusional when you think of yourself as a curmudgeonly male;
I think I already agreed with you about that, and I haven't said otherwise.But if I think I'm a cat, I'm delusional. Or if I think I'm a woman -- or at least pretend to think I am -- then I'm delusional, and possibly trying to enforce my delusional thinking on you, as well.
Yes, we covered delusional beliefs with Christianity.The difference between a delusion and a truth is its relationship to that thing we call "reality."
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Sex and gender
Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 8:06 pmWell that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 7:23 pmI'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 4:11 pm
Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.
Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist. And I think the same is true of Atheists, but don't say that they can't be Atheists if they're determined to be one.
But this is quite a different situation than the "sex-gender" thing, in which there is no reality in even the claim, and it's not even remotely possible for a man to "be" a woman. The question then becomes, "Is Harbal morally obligated to join that deluded person in his delusion, or is it just fine if Harbal says, 'No, man...you're a dude'?"
Re: Sex and gender
If it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:33 pmOh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.
But what does he mean when he says he's a Marxist? He might be so impressed with Marx's beard that he aspires to grow one equally magnificent, and considers himself a follower of Marx on that basis alone. Shall we call him deluded, or just stupid?Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist.
You think there was such a person as Christ, who was the son of God, and some other bloke thinks there are such things as genders, and believes a particular one of them belongs to him, or he belongs to it; what's the principle difference?But this is quite a different situation than the "sex-gender" thing, in which there is no reality in even the claim,
You seem very reluctant to accept my agreement on that.and it's not even remotely possible for a man to "be" a woman.
No, I am under no obligation, but if he were to tell me that he felt his gender was female, I would say, fair enough, but why are you telling me? If he were to tell me he was a woman, I would probably leave him to his delusion, and only say, "'No, man...you're a dude", if he expected me to go to bed with him.The question then becomes, "Is Harbal morally obligated to join that deluded person in his delusion, or is it just fine if Harbal says, 'No, man...you're a dude'?"
- Immanuel Can
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Re: Sex and gender
Well, you and I can argue over whether Christianity is a "construct" (an invention of men) or a divine ordinance; I'll say the latter, and probably you, the former. But it entirely misses the point.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:13 pmIf it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:33 pmOh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.
Let me make it succintly: sex is not "constructed." It's what you have when you come to exist, in the first place. There's no choice, no "re-identifying," and nobody "constructs" it for you. Your genetics are set from day one, from your very conception-moment.
"Marxist" is a belief. Many Marxists will argue about what "true Marxism" requires. It matters little. In addition to being a chosen belief, it's most certainly a construct, too, since it can claim no divine origin whatsoever, and we know the man who invented it.But what does he mean when he says he's a Marxist? He might be so impressed with Marx's beard that he aspires to grow one equally magnificent, and considers himself a follower of Marx on that basis alone. Shall we call him deluded, or just stupid?Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist.
So a man may claim to be a "Marxist" on practically any grounds he likes.
But sex is not like that. It's not a construct.
The difference between something objectively defined by a particular belief, and something that has nothing to do with any belief at all, but is an objective, scientific and unchangeable reality....what's the principle difference?
It's the difference between you saying, "I'm a trade-unionist," and "I'm a pumpkin." The former is quite possible; the latter, utterly absurd.
Re: Sex and gender
Yes, but the people in question don't mean sex by the word gender. I don't understand exactly what they do mean by it, but I don't understand the deep feelings you seem to have about Christianity, either. But whatever they feel about gender, and how it relates to them, seems to be very important to them, so I don't think they should be condemned for it. I still don't think they should be allowed into women's toilets, though.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Sat Dec 30, 2023 4:56 amWell, you and I can argue over whether Christianity is a "construct" (an invention of men) or a divine ordinance; I'll say the latter, and probably you, the former. But it entirely misses the point.Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:13 pmIf it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:33 pm
Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.
Let me make it succintly: sex is not "constructed." It's what you have when you come to exist, in the first place. There's no choice, no "re-identifying," and nobody "constructs" it for you. Your genetics are set from day one, from your very conception-moment.
Re: Sex and gender
Harbal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:46 pmI used to go out of my way to offend people a lot more, "back then", so although you think I've deteriorated in one respect, perhaps I have progressed in another.Age wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 1:07 pm1. I AGREE WITH "vegeteriantaxidermy" that 'you' were MUCH so-called 'cleverer' and MORE likable, BACK THEN.
This' IS ONLY A comment, and NOT A criticism, AT ALL. After all 'I' come here, PURPOSELY, to BE NOT LIKED.
2. 'you' can NEVER BE EXACTLY the SAME, as 'you' ONCE WERE.
But I NEVER MEANT that 'you' had 'deteriorated' in ANY WAY, AT ALL.
Maybe it was the humor in 'your writings', when 'you' were being so-called 'offensive', which made 'your' remarks far 'more likeable'.