Is morality objective or subjective?

[Immanuel Can]

The events of Jewish history? Isaiah does. Read that.

Reading Isaiah tells me nothing of Jewish history beyond what Isaiah wrote.

You don't know what it will tell you. You haven't read it.

Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:04 am
But now, so too was the restoration of Israel foretold...an unprecedented national regeneration, unlike anything to be found in all of history...one might well call it a "miracle" -- except you don't believe in such things.

Dubious wrote: ...only accomplished by the ethnic cleansing of Palestine,

Well, that's just antisemitic propaganda.

In your book it would be. Any negative or critical comments on Jews, Israel, or the Bible is simply regarded as nothing more than antisemitism. The usual response theism short-circuits to whenever and wherever the integrity of Jews, Jewish history or the bible become objects of criticism.

Don't be disingenuous. None of the reasons or explanations I gave presuppose one can't criticize Israel. They only show that the criticism you raised isn't the right one.

The Palestinians were displaced because of their cooperation with the attempted genocide during the Yom Kippur war, and lost their land because of their sheer hatred for Jews.

If that isn't super-simplistic and prejudiced...

It isn't either. It's just the facts.

As the saying goes, "If the Palestinians laid down their arms, there would be peace in Israel tomorrow; if the Israelis did, there would be no Israelis tomorrow.

Bullshit!

So you would say that Hamas, who beheaded babies and murdered and kidnapped old people, and raped civilians, would not kill Jews? The same people who danced in the streets or yelled "Gas the Jews" when it happened? The same people who use their own citizens as human shields? Those lovely people?

I'm certain you're wrong. Their own actions tell the tale.

Exterminate Hamas and its like without slaughtering the Palestinians en masse...

Exactly what they seem to be doing. They seem to be striking hard at Hamas, but warning the civilians to flee in advance, and avoiding civilian casualties as much as they can despite that they have been forced into a war. Meanwhile, Hamas is forcing civilians to stay in place and serve as human shields...so that's how much they love their own people.

[Immanuel Can]

I have the onus to correct any mistakes.

No "onus." I owe you nothing at all.

Not for me but for the sake of truth, philosophy and humanity.

Well, this is the wonderful argument you had there:
It is impossible for God to exist as real

P1. For all theists, God must be absolutely perfect and existing as real [i.],

P2. But, Absolute perfection is impossible to exist as real

C1. Therefore it is impossible for God to exist real.

Really? That's your best shot? Give me something worth bothering with, and we can both help humanity.

[Veritas Aequitas]

No "onus." I owe you nothing at all.

Not for me but for the sake of truth, philosophy and humanity.

Well, this is the wonderful argument you had there:
It is impossible for God to exist as real

P1. For all theists, God must be absolutely perfect and existing as real [i.],

P2. But, Absolute perfection is impossible to exist as real

C1. Therefore it is impossible for God to exist real.

Really? That's your best shot? Give me something worth bothering with, and we can both help humanity.

I believe you have some sort of subconscious fears in addressing my argument.

I have already provided the relevant supporting notes and explanations to my premises.

Here is an argument for P2 with details in the notes;

• 1. What is real must be conditioned upon a specific human based Framework and System of Reality [FSR] and Knowledge [FSK], e.g. the Scientific FSK.
  
  2. Absolute Perfection is a thought of an absolute unconditioned which is faith-based, thus not 1.
  
  3. Therefore, from the perspective of a human conditioned FSK, it is impossible for absolute Perfection to be real.

[Dontaskme]

Not seein' what this or your previous post have to do with Walker's comment or my follow up to his comment.

Ask the Walker. That'll make you none the wiser.

[Gary Childress]

Yes, IC. God picks a few people that he likes, the rest of us are scum and "unbelievers".

Why, Gary, do you insist on saying things people have never said, and never would, and then acting like that's what they said?

Because I'm scum and that's what scum does. The world is better off without me and I'm better off outside of this world. God made a mistake. I guess he's not perfect after all.

[Immanuel Can]

Not for me but for the sake of truth, philosophy and humanity.

Well, this is the wonderful argument you had there:
It is impossible for God to exist as real

P1. For all theists, God must be absolutely perfect and existing as real [i.],

P2. But, Absolute perfection is impossible to exist as real

C1. Therefore it is impossible for God to exist real.

Really? That's your best shot? Give me something worth bothering with, and we can both help humanity.

I believe you have some sort of subconscious fears in addressing my argument.

It's not an argument. It's neither logically valid nor premised truthfully, which makes it unsound. As such, it represents no intellectual challenge, no interesting idea, no reasonable objection to anything. It's just too boring and misguided to work with, too easily dispatched.

And that, you will discover, is why it is not (despite your belief that it presents an important argument) anything you will find in the relevant skeptical literature; you're the only one who thinks it's an "argument."

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, IC. God picks a few people that he likes, the rest of us are scum and "unbelievers".

Why, Gary, do you insist on saying things people have never said, and never would, and then acting like that's what they said?

Because I'm scum and that's what scum does.

Not worth a response. Self-indulgent twaddle.

[Gary Childress]

Why, Gary, do you insist on saying things people have never said, and never would, and then acting like that's what they said?

Because I'm scum and that's what scum does.

Not worth a response. Self-indulgent twaddle.

But I am not "indulging" if I refer to myself as "scum". Therefore, I don't think it is "self-indulgence". Maybe you should call it "evil". Just say I am "evil" and we'll get it over with.

If you indulge in something or if you indulge yourself, you allow yourself to have or do something that you know you will enjoy.

https://www.google.com/search?q=indulge ... s-wiz-serp

[Immanuel Can]

Because I'm scum and that's what scum does.

Not worth a response. Self-indulgent twaddle.

But I am not "indulging" if I refer to myself as "scum".

Yes, you are. It's the old "pity-Gary" party. Sorry to have to decline the invitation.

[Gary Childress]

Not worth a response. Self-indulgent twaddle.

But I am not "indulging" if I refer to myself as "scum".

Yes, you are. It's the old "pity-Gary" party. Sorry to have to decline the invitation.

I want no PITY, ASSHOLE, I WANT YOU TO CHANGE! I AM NOT SICK.

[Immanuel Can]

But I am not "indulging" if I refer to myself as "scum".

Yes, you are. It's the old "pity-Gary" party. Sorry to have to decline the invitation.

I want no PITY, ASSHOLE, I WANT YOU TO CHANGE! I AM NOT SICK.

Well, I didn't say you were. Funny that you mention that, therefore. But yes, you're all about the pity, Gary; and it's not doing you any good. So you should get over it, and work on whatever you need to work on to make your life better. Complaining here isn't it.

[Gary Childress]

Yes, you are. It's the old "pity-Gary" party. Sorry to have to decline the invitation.

I want no PITY, ASSHOLE, I WANT YOU TO CHANGE! I AM NOT SICK.

Well, I didn't say you were. Funny that you mention that, therefore. But yes, you're all about the pity, Gary; and it's not doing you any good. So you should get over it, and work on whatever you need to work on to make your life better. Complaining here isn't it.

Fuck off. I'll complain if I want to. Learn to deal with it.

[Dubious]

None of the reasons or explanations I gave presuppose one can't criticize Israel. They only show that the criticism you raised isn't the right one.

That depends on what side of the bible your on.

So you would say that Hamas, who beheaded babies and murdered and kidnapped old people, and raped civilians, would not kill Jews?

I have no idea what in any of my posts you're referring to. It would be kinda silly to say they would not kill Jews when they killed over 1400 defenseless ones in an act of pure butchery.

Exterminate Hamas and its like without slaughtering the Palestinians en masse...

Exactly what they seem to be doing. They seem to be striking hard at Hamas, but warning the civilians to flee in advance, and avoiding civilian casualties as much as they can despite that they have been forced into a war. Meanwhile, Hamas is forcing civilians to stay in place and serve as human shields...so that's how much they love their own people.

It happens once or twice every epoch that I'm not disagreement. But no matter where they are told to go, the war is there. There is no refuge or relief. Hamas will hate the Jew with supreme hatred while its leaders have proven how indifferent they are to what the Palestinians, their own people, are going through as a consequence of their aggression.

Hamas is great example of how boundless hostility can make one asinine to the point of insanity and present to the world an event of abject cowardice. What could possibly have been the point of such a disgusting low-life attack against a group of unarmed civilians enjoying a music fest!

What did they imagine such a cowardly act would accomplish against a much greater power guaranteed to respond in a rage of retribution! Is the Israeli response what they actually hoped for thinking it would be the catalyst for most of the Arab/Muslim nations to once more rise up and challenge the right of Israel to exist? But then there's the U.S. factor which will not allow Israel to be defeated if forced to stand on its own.

As previously mentioned, all of Hamas, especially its leaders, should be exterminated in whatever numbers required to accomplish it. But that will never happen. The current situation in Gaza will spawn a legion of new recruits, young guys, even more intent on hating and destroying Israel.

The Israelis themselves are far from having been the "good guys" in the region so unless there's a final solution and compromise of some kind, Israel and its surrounding will always be at war, cold or active. It's debatable, with alliances being what they are, not so unlike what started WWI, whether we can avoid number three. Small firecrackers have been known to trigger much bigger ones!

I mention all this to affirm the Realpolitik of what's happening, the aftermath of a long saga which begins in the Roman times with the Diaspora. What Old Testament prophets had to say and their forever pissed-off god who holds a grudge long enough for his Chosen People to be nearly annihilated has neither use nor value in the current situation...in fact, more likely to be detrimental when invoking biblical rights and privileges as factors in solving what needs to be desperately solved. Applying ancient solutions and justifications to modern problems has an extremely low probability of working and more likely to antagonize.

Anyway, these are some of my views. More questions than answers. Yours being strictly bible-centered doesn't have that problem.

[Immanuel Can]

I want no PITY, ASSHOLE, I WANT YOU TO CHANGE! I AM NOT SICK.

Well, I didn't say you were. Funny that you mention that, therefore. But yes, you're all about the pity, Gary; and it's not doing you any good. So you should get over it, and work on whatever you need to work on to make your life better. Complaining here isn't it.

Fuck off. I'll complain if I want to. Learn to deal with it.

I can, just fine. But your life is going to stay what it is, if all you do is complain. My advice would be that you change it. But if you're "happy" the way you are, then I have nothing to say about that.

[Immanuel Can]

There is no refuge or relief. Hamas will hate the Jew with supreme hatred while its leaders have proven how indifferent they are to what the Palestinians, their own people, are going through as a consequence of their aggression.

I'd like to be able to say that it's two different things...Hamas and the Palestinians. But it wasn't just Hamas that was in the street dancing when the Jewish civilians were being slaughtered, raped and murdered. And it wasn't Hamas per se that was chanting "Gas the Jews." It isn't just Hamas that believes the slogan that Israel must be wiped off the face of the earth, "from the river to the sea." And it wasn't just Hamas that made it possible for Hamas to build its secret tunnels, or prepare its rockets...

I'm afraid we all have to face the fact that while Hamas did the dirty deed, far too many others were excited, happy and enthused about everything they did. And they're still celebrating: in many places, they held 9-11 marches and demonstrations. Talk about a tasteless, nihilistic and wicked thing to do...to celebrate dead Jews and dead Americans, on the very day of the most vicious and cowardly terrorist attack in Western history!

But I'm afraid that sort of sentiment is much more general than Hamas. There are great numbers of sympathizers around the world -- some of them in congress -- who are just as eager as Hamas to see Jews murdered. That much, they have made abundantly clear to all of us in the last few days.