as human beings, we are always seeking to find something
eternal, forever, bigger than ourselves...
but reality has proven to be resistant to the eternal...
what can we say is eternal?
god, the earth, the universe, our bodies, our soul?
what can we say for sure is eternal? time or perhaps space?
we can't know that... we can guess and hope, but that is about it...
but the question comes down to why, why do human beings long for the
eternal?
Human beings change and transform every single day.... we are not who
we were at birth or in childhood... I have changed from my childhood to today...
even my physical body has changed... one of the ''sufferings'' is this movement
of the body from our stronger, younger selves to today, where I am old,
and nowhere as strong and powerful as I once was..... in my youth, I
could run 20 miles and swim for several hours... and today... even walking
wears me out... and I can't lift anything because I am not strong enough...
it is said by science that every single cell in our body is replaced every
7 years....and if that is true, then I have changed my entire body
several times.. and if I am not who I was as a child or even a teenager,
then I have transformed, in body, spirit, soul, and in my mental
and psychological aspects... even my very needs have changed...
and how is that eternal?
and that search for the universal, eternal, is because we ourselves
are not forever, eternal in any aspect... I am not the same person I
was, considering the personal events of the last few days,
I have changed within the last few days...
so we search for the eternal, forever because we ourselves are
fragmentary, temporary, provisional.. in body, mind, soul and emotions....
or said another way, we are transforming all the time....
but let us change the nature of this transformation...
instead of letting transformation happening to us,
we control the transformations... instead of depending on
god or religion or even science, let us decide, each of us,
what transformations we want in our lives....
we already do this to a certain extent, when we
try to lose weight, or begin to work out.. or read to
educate ourselves...
these transformations are just small steps however.....
let us engage in transformations that we decide upon
and the parameters of that transformations...
I can't change or transform the fact that I am old
and getting older every day....but I can make a conscious effort to
to slow down that getting older... at work, I walk anywhere from
7000 steps to 15,000 steps...that is my exercise... and I read a lot
and practice chess and I engage in puzzles... I am working out my mind,
as well as my body... and I am trying to transform my emotional state..
from the way I react to people and things, to how I approach my life..
my study into eastern philosophy is an attempt to create a ''way of life"'..
as I have used western philosophy so far to attempt to create a
''way of life'' by switching gears and trying to find that ''way of life''
in eastern philosophy....I hope to find some mixture of the two
will make my choice of a ''way of life'' possible....and make
that choice with purpose and as a goal... for me, I want
my changes, my transformations to come from my own direct
effort and choices....I am choosing to become...
instead of the accidental transformations we have, I am choosing to
transform and I am choosing the direction and form of that transformation...
but Kropotkin, you are 64... what does it matter about your choices?
death is soon to come for you.... yes, it is... but that doesn't change
or effect my choices... my goal to control and become who I want
to be...using my choices as a means of having some control over
the path of becoming... I choose my own ''way of life''.. instead
of having my ''way of life'' chosen for me... by the state, the society,
the church, the media, my family and my friends......
become who you are..... transform into the person you want to be...
instead of allowing the choices to be made for you....
that is as close to the eternal, forever as one is likely to get....
Kropotkin
the eternal and transformations.....
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1708
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1708
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the eternal and transformations.....
because of this changes that naturally occur in our lives,
the many transformations that happen...
people often look to finding something that is ''bigger than
themselves'' be it joining the Armed forces, to belonging to
a political party, to belonging to a church, to seeking god...
each of these is an attempt to overcome our changes, our
transformations....to latch onto something that is more
permanent than we are...in this, it is not enough to be
oneself... we must become, belong to something bigger than we are.....
every religion, every political party, every book group joined is an attempt to
become one with something larger than we are........
the entire sports industry is about this becoming with one that is bigger
than we are.... our love of sports teams.. I love the SF Giants.. baseball,
and this is the start of basketball season, and I watch the Warriors
religiously... I am not as enthusiastic about American football or
Hockey... although when I was younger, I watch both of them...
the faith of the sports watcher is just another example of trying
to belong to something that is bigger than we are...
Patriotism is another example of trying to belong to something
bigger than we are... religions, sports, political parties,
country and god are some ways to belong to something that
is bigger than we are.....
Now the question becomes, is there some way to belong to something
bigger than we are, without, without joining some political party
or obsessively watching sports or some engagement with god?
there is, but it requires us to walk away from some deeply held isms
and ideologies.... country and god are ism's, the faith in guns is an ism,
the faith in sports teams is an ism....
but what can we hold to be true and still be independent of ism's
and ideologies?
we can hold that the transformations of humans is a possible source of
a new understanding of becoming one with.... we can think about
other human beings as being united with something bigger than ourselves....
or said another way, the transformations of human beings can be the
uniting factor of us into a belief into something bigger than we are....
we can become something bigger than ourselves by our united
efforts to become something better.... the goal is to find a ''way of life''
and we can become one in that search for a better ''way of life''
for clearly, our ''way of life'' our current ''way of life'' is lacking because
of the discontentment within our society today....
we can think of the last 123 years as a history of our discontentment....
for we cannot, under any circumstances, think that the Holocaust was
an act of contentment and joy... or that the two World Wars were
some sort of answer about how contented we are....
or the many wars and conflicts of the last 123 years a sign of
our unhappiness in our ''way of life'' .....
happy, contented people don't use the Atomic bomb or build Auschwitz or
engage in virtually constant wars, as we have over the last 123 years...
we are, as Socrates might say, soul sick.. and that soul sickness extends
to our understanding of what it means to be human or what it means
to believe in something bigger than we are...or our prejudices and
bigotry that is part of America today... happy, contented people
engage in tolerance, and equality and justice and peace....
the opposite of half of Americans today....
and what do unhappy people engage with? just look at the news today...
and weep.. because we can't even see that we are ''soul sick'' in the midst
of our wars and prejudice and hatred of others and denial of justice/equality...
and what is the answer? finding a ''way of life'' that guides us to
the basic humanity of human beings... but Kropotkin, human beings
change, oftentimes daily... how can we be guided into human beings
if we are always changing? and that is what we celebrate about
human beings... our ability to change, to become something different...
every day...... it is not the permanence we seek, but the ability
to adapt to our changes... we seek something forever and permanent,
to counteract the constant changes that being human requires....
but we seek the wrong thing.. it isn't the eternal, permanent thing
that we must seek, but how to be the change that we always
are.... to be human isn't about being eternal/permanent, but about
the changes in our lives.... we are not forever, permanent beings..
but we are beings that change, at every moment of our lives...
from birth to death... and that is what we need to believe in...
the changes that all human beings go through...
to celebrate our limited, finite selves... that is what we are
and what we will be, now and forever....
we can hold to change with the same passion as we do, to the
forever, eternal that we try to find...
that is our connection to all human beings.. is our nature to
change,.... to that we can believe and hold to be true as
a higher power..... not in god or a political power, but in
the human capacity to change... that is the real strength
of being human... to control and adapt to our real time
changes that happen every day, every week and every
7 years.. until death...
what does it mean to be human?
to constantly change...
Kropotkin
the many transformations that happen...
people often look to finding something that is ''bigger than
themselves'' be it joining the Armed forces, to belonging to
a political party, to belonging to a church, to seeking god...
each of these is an attempt to overcome our changes, our
transformations....to latch onto something that is more
permanent than we are...in this, it is not enough to be
oneself... we must become, belong to something bigger than we are.....
every religion, every political party, every book group joined is an attempt to
become one with something larger than we are........
the entire sports industry is about this becoming with one that is bigger
than we are.... our love of sports teams.. I love the SF Giants.. baseball,
and this is the start of basketball season, and I watch the Warriors
religiously... I am not as enthusiastic about American football or
Hockey... although when I was younger, I watch both of them...
the faith of the sports watcher is just another example of trying
to belong to something that is bigger than we are...
Patriotism is another example of trying to belong to something
bigger than we are... religions, sports, political parties,
country and god are some ways to belong to something that
is bigger than we are.....
Now the question becomes, is there some way to belong to something
bigger than we are, without, without joining some political party
or obsessively watching sports or some engagement with god?
there is, but it requires us to walk away from some deeply held isms
and ideologies.... country and god are ism's, the faith in guns is an ism,
the faith in sports teams is an ism....
but what can we hold to be true and still be independent of ism's
and ideologies?
we can hold that the transformations of humans is a possible source of
a new understanding of becoming one with.... we can think about
other human beings as being united with something bigger than ourselves....
or said another way, the transformations of human beings can be the
uniting factor of us into a belief into something bigger than we are....
we can become something bigger than ourselves by our united
efforts to become something better.... the goal is to find a ''way of life''
and we can become one in that search for a better ''way of life''
for clearly, our ''way of life'' our current ''way of life'' is lacking because
of the discontentment within our society today....
we can think of the last 123 years as a history of our discontentment....
for we cannot, under any circumstances, think that the Holocaust was
an act of contentment and joy... or that the two World Wars were
some sort of answer about how contented we are....
or the many wars and conflicts of the last 123 years a sign of
our unhappiness in our ''way of life'' .....
happy, contented people don't use the Atomic bomb or build Auschwitz or
engage in virtually constant wars, as we have over the last 123 years...
we are, as Socrates might say, soul sick.. and that soul sickness extends
to our understanding of what it means to be human or what it means
to believe in something bigger than we are...or our prejudices and
bigotry that is part of America today... happy, contented people
engage in tolerance, and equality and justice and peace....
the opposite of half of Americans today....
and what do unhappy people engage with? just look at the news today...
and weep.. because we can't even see that we are ''soul sick'' in the midst
of our wars and prejudice and hatred of others and denial of justice/equality...
and what is the answer? finding a ''way of life'' that guides us to
the basic humanity of human beings... but Kropotkin, human beings
change, oftentimes daily... how can we be guided into human beings
if we are always changing? and that is what we celebrate about
human beings... our ability to change, to become something different...
every day...... it is not the permanence we seek, but the ability
to adapt to our changes... we seek something forever and permanent,
to counteract the constant changes that being human requires....
but we seek the wrong thing.. it isn't the eternal, permanent thing
that we must seek, but how to be the change that we always
are.... to be human isn't about being eternal/permanent, but about
the changes in our lives.... we are not forever, permanent beings..
but we are beings that change, at every moment of our lives...
from birth to death... and that is what we need to believe in...
the changes that all human beings go through...
to celebrate our limited, finite selves... that is what we are
and what we will be, now and forever....
we can hold to change with the same passion as we do, to the
forever, eternal that we try to find...
that is our connection to all human beings.. is our nature to
change,.... to that we can believe and hold to be true as
a higher power..... not in god or a political power, but in
the human capacity to change... that is the real strength
of being human... to control and adapt to our real time
changes that happen every day, every week and every
7 years.. until death...
what does it mean to be human?
to constantly change...
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1708
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the eternal and transformations.....
for most Indian religions/philosophies, that the
assumption of rebirth is at the heart of both, religions/philosophy,
and to end rebirth is in both... the way that Indian religions/philosophy
understand the world is that there is a permanent reality.. it is
called Brahman... the one/ the reality of the universe is Brahman..
and our soul, is also Brahman... that is called Atman... the goal
is to reunite our souls, Atman with Brahman... like drops
of water going into an endless sea... the drops are Atman
and the sea is Brahman....
and that Brahman is the one thing that does exists...that is the
only real substance in the universe.. that is the one thing that
does not change.... everything is illusion except for Brahman...
(at least that is what the Buddhists believe)
but the reality of this is that we cannot just assume that
the only real thing in the universe is Brahman... the one....
the fact is that we have no idea if there is a one, real thing,
called Brahman, in the universe.... it is an assumption....
and that we are reborn, another assumption
and that our souls is Atman, waiting to unite with the one,
Brahman, is an assumption...
in fact, the only thing we can know for sure, is that the universe
and all existence is change...and that change is driven by
entropy... what is actually permanent in the universe?
nothing... nothing at all...to say, well space and time is real,
and permanent, that too is an assumption because
we simply don't know enough about space/time to
actually assume is the one thing that is permanent.....
and to think about existence and the permanent in terms
of not knowing, of being agnostic about reality/space/time
and god, is to really say that they are not existing....
to say, they are not proven, is to say, they don't exist until
proven otherwise.....there is really no half way house between
something existing and something not existing...
the fact is that all we can know about existence is that it is temporary,
full of change... and that change is the only constant in the universe...
we are always going from here to there... physically, mentally, emotionally,
and psychologically.. the only thing left to work out is that change going
to be internally driven, or left to chance.. are we going to drive our own
changes, or are we simply allowing change to happen as it does...
we are going to transform, whether or not we want to...
our approval is not needed for change to happen..
it will happen if we don't agree to it...
I will grow old and I will get diseases and I will die...
that the ''sufferings'' of existence will happen, no matter what
I think or pray about it...my body will renew every single cell
in my body, every 7 years, I will become a new body.. and it
really doesn't matter if I want it or not... my approval isn't
necessary nor is it wanted...it will just happen....
and that change, that is what happens in the universe...
not seeking what is permanent, because there isn't such
a thing as permanent...there is only change and the nature of
change is mostly out of our control, but we can control some
changes in our lives... and we should take advantage of those
changes we can control....
what is real in the universe is change.. and nothing else....
Kropotkin
assumption of rebirth is at the heart of both, religions/philosophy,
and to end rebirth is in both... the way that Indian religions/philosophy
understand the world is that there is a permanent reality.. it is
called Brahman... the one/ the reality of the universe is Brahman..
and our soul, is also Brahman... that is called Atman... the goal
is to reunite our souls, Atman with Brahman... like drops
of water going into an endless sea... the drops are Atman
and the sea is Brahman....
and that Brahman is the one thing that does exists...that is the
only real substance in the universe.. that is the one thing that
does not change.... everything is illusion except for Brahman...
(at least that is what the Buddhists believe)
but the reality of this is that we cannot just assume that
the only real thing in the universe is Brahman... the one....
the fact is that we have no idea if there is a one, real thing,
called Brahman, in the universe.... it is an assumption....
and that we are reborn, another assumption
and that our souls is Atman, waiting to unite with the one,
Brahman, is an assumption...
in fact, the only thing we can know for sure, is that the universe
and all existence is change...and that change is driven by
entropy... what is actually permanent in the universe?
nothing... nothing at all...to say, well space and time is real,
and permanent, that too is an assumption because
we simply don't know enough about space/time to
actually assume is the one thing that is permanent.....
and to think about existence and the permanent in terms
of not knowing, of being agnostic about reality/space/time
and god, is to really say that they are not existing....
to say, they are not proven, is to say, they don't exist until
proven otherwise.....there is really no half way house between
something existing and something not existing...
the fact is that all we can know about existence is that it is temporary,
full of change... and that change is the only constant in the universe...
we are always going from here to there... physically, mentally, emotionally,
and psychologically.. the only thing left to work out is that change going
to be internally driven, or left to chance.. are we going to drive our own
changes, or are we simply allowing change to happen as it does...
we are going to transform, whether or not we want to...
our approval is not needed for change to happen..
it will happen if we don't agree to it...
I will grow old and I will get diseases and I will die...
that the ''sufferings'' of existence will happen, no matter what
I think or pray about it...my body will renew every single cell
in my body, every 7 years, I will become a new body.. and it
really doesn't matter if I want it or not... my approval isn't
necessary nor is it wanted...it will just happen....
and that change, that is what happens in the universe...
not seeking what is permanent, because there isn't such
a thing as permanent...there is only change and the nature of
change is mostly out of our control, but we can control some
changes in our lives... and we should take advantage of those
changes we can control....
what is real in the universe is change.. and nothing else....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1708
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: the eternal and transformations.....
so, we have given some thought to the only reality in
the universe is change... there is no permanent, no
one thing that exists above or beyond anything else.....
so, we return to an earlier thread of mine...
in which I state that an important aspect of reality
is chance, randomness, probability......
and I now tie the two ideas together...
we cannot have something permanent if, if
reality is about chance and randomness...
the universe being about randomness, chance and probability,
means that we cannot depend on something being real, permanent...
in a random universe, does either Atman or even Brahman exists?
I don't see how you can have one permanent real thing, Brahman,
given that the universe is about chance, randomness, probability.....
the other brick in the wall is entropy...... how does that one, permanent
real thing, exist within a universe dictated by entropy?
is Brahman above or superior to the physical laws of the universe?
is Brahman above or outside the law of gravity, or thermodynamics,
or evolution or as mentioned, entropy?
one might argue that Brahman is gravity or evolution or entropy...
the problem with that, is that assumes evidence not currently
present...is Brahman really about the randomness or chance
of the universe? that may be a bridge too far.....beyond the pale,
as it were.... how are we to connect randomness with Brahman?
the laws of science that we are all, subject to, must also subject
Brahman to... or otherwise, Brahman is really chance or randomness..
where a pig can fly or a dog can become human....the laws
of physics and evolution prevent such a thing right now,
but if we allow Brahman to be about chance or randomness,
then anything really is possible including pigs flying
and sheep giving birth to tigers....
the laws of physics and evolution and thermodynamics, prevent such
things as pigs flying... and we cannot, as human beings, overcome
the laws of physics or gravity or thermodynamics... we are subject
to those laws as is the planet earth, pigs and dogs... and we must
include Brahman into that class of things that cannot override
or operate outside of the laws of science....
Kropotkin
the universe is change... there is no permanent, no
one thing that exists above or beyond anything else.....
so, we return to an earlier thread of mine...
in which I state that an important aspect of reality
is chance, randomness, probability......
and I now tie the two ideas together...
we cannot have something permanent if, if
reality is about chance and randomness...
the universe being about randomness, chance and probability,
means that we cannot depend on something being real, permanent...
in a random universe, does either Atman or even Brahman exists?
I don't see how you can have one permanent real thing, Brahman,
given that the universe is about chance, randomness, probability.....
the other brick in the wall is entropy...... how does that one, permanent
real thing, exist within a universe dictated by entropy?
is Brahman above or superior to the physical laws of the universe?
is Brahman above or outside the law of gravity, or thermodynamics,
or evolution or as mentioned, entropy?
one might argue that Brahman is gravity or evolution or entropy...
the problem with that, is that assumes evidence not currently
present...is Brahman really about the randomness or chance
of the universe? that may be a bridge too far.....beyond the pale,
as it were.... how are we to connect randomness with Brahman?
the laws of science that we are all, subject to, must also subject
Brahman to... or otherwise, Brahman is really chance or randomness..
where a pig can fly or a dog can become human....the laws
of physics and evolution prevent such a thing right now,
but if we allow Brahman to be about chance or randomness,
then anything really is possible including pigs flying
and sheep giving birth to tigers....
the laws of physics and evolution and thermodynamics, prevent such
things as pigs flying... and we cannot, as human beings, overcome
the laws of physics or gravity or thermodynamics... we are subject
to those laws as is the planet earth, pigs and dogs... and we must
include Brahman into that class of things that cannot override
or operate outside of the laws of science....
Kropotkin