Christianity

[Nick_A]

I C

But you want to launch an accusation against God Himself. To which society, with its concept of "justice," would you appeal, in order to do this? What convinces you that the Supreme Being owes you a particular outcome in life or death?

A question for you. Do you believe a personal God is concerned with subjective human conceptions of justice as opposed to universal conceptions of justice we still don't understand and remain closed to?

I would say that conceptions of "justice" can be measured against the standard of God's objective nature and His justice.

Does that address your question? It's worded a bit oddly, to me.

Let me try it from another direction. If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

[promethean75]

"There is an immutableness, an essentialness, to natural rights. They aren't optional. They are as real as fire."

... and they are that way through the force of might, reducible to it, whether as enforced through law by those who agree with you (the civil contract), or by a person's sheer will/strength to prevent himself from being enslaved, inhibited, forced, to do anything against his own will... which is what asserting to be one's own property and person essentially is. the very idea itself has no substance unless there is power there to establish it, to make it demonstrable.

that intuitive feeling we all have of our own owness becomes confused by our use and understanding of concepts such as property and ownership, and we end up talking about it wrongly, nonsensically.

think about it. we wouldn't characterize our relationship to our own body as a relationship between an object and a proprietor. neither could we sell ourselves or have a lien taken out on us. sure, i would be able to move my body to a location in space like i could a chair, but I'd not be carrying my body, nor would i set it down.

so what self ownership must mean, can only mean, is that the person who is the body in question will prolly wanna do what they wanna do and if they don't get to do it, and you're gonna stop em, u better have a damn good reason. that's all that means in praxis.

all these concepts and ideas of inherent rights and justice and all that are just spooks bruh. language games. not saying we can't and shouldn't have contacts, only that hitherto they are founded on philosophical confusions. 

anyway every second of your life you are engaged in a ruthless battle against the laws of physics for your health, your survival, your happiness. I'm tellin u bro if there's one motherfucker that don't give two shits about your concept of 'right', it's the universe.



 

[henry quirk]

prevent[/i] himself from being enslaved, inhibited, forced, to do anything against his own will... which is what asserting to be one's own property and person essentially is. the very idea itself has no substance unless there is power there to establish it, to make it demonstrable.

Nope. Your right to your life, your liberty, your property stands independent of everyone else. Doesn't matter if everyone agrees you have natural rights or aggressively disagrees. Now, the existence of your natural rights offers no direct protection against violation, this is true. You can be murdered, raped, slaved, and robbed. But, as I say: these are not negations of natural rights, your natural rights haven't been taken away. They, you, have been violated. That's it, that's all.

So, when that man steals your water: go gunnin' for him.

*

we wouldn't characterize our relationship to our own body as a relationship between an object and a proprietor. neither could we sell ourselves or have a lien taken out on us. sure, i would be able to move my body to a location in space like i could a chair, but I'd not be carrying my body, nor would i set it down.

You are, in part, your body. It's yours. And you can sell, or give away, parts of it. I wouldn't recommend it though, unless you have spares

*

so what self ownership must mean, can only mean, is that the person who is the body in question will prolly wanna do what they wanna do and if they don't get to do it, and you're gonna stop em, u better have a damn good reason. that's all that means in praxis.

You can do with yourself whatever you like. What you justly cannot do is whatever you like with me.

[henry quirk]

Let me try it from another direction. If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

Assumin' men are the only ensouled beings in the universe...

If God is outside the universe: His one conduit for justice, us, is gone, so no.

If God is inside the universe: yes.

If God is the universe: yes.

...assumin' God is a person and not just some ball of hippy-drippy, feel-good, love energy.

[promethean75]

"So, when that man steals your water: go gunnin' for him."

But if you fire 'til he's done in, they may catch you at the border.

Sounds risky man. I dunno.

[henry quirk]

But if you fire 'til he's done in, they may catch you at the border.

They may. If they do, more than likely you'll be charged with assault or murder or whatever. The State and its agents take a dim view of peons seekin' justice outside what they dictate. Justice, morality, however, these are not The State's to define or dispense.

Sounds risky man. I dunno.

It is and not just becuz them lawmen might come for. You, as the aggrieved, have a right to compensation. This is the essence of justice: re-balance, no more, no less. Your water is stolen. If plentiful, then all you have claim to is the return of what was taken. If scarce, that theft is not only of water but mebbe livestock or family, of life. Compensation due is more weighty.

You, as executor of your just claim, can't overstep the bounds of your claim and remain just.

Recognizin' natural rights, then, is no comfort. It's an on-going exercise in self-restraint and an acknowledgment that man, as sumthin' more than meat machine, has a Creator. This, of course, is why folks deny they have natural rights, deny they are free wills, deny The Creator. It's a profound responsibility to be a person, to reflect the Person, and many folks just aren't up for it. Much easier for them to declare themselves meat machines and let authority define and oversee the rules.

[Immanuel Can]

If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

Would God continue to have the same nature and character, the one in which "justice" is grounded as a property? Yes, obviously.

Would there be any human experience of that? No, not any longer, obviously.

But I get the feeling those answers are so obvious that I must be missing something that's supposed to be difficult in answering that...what am I not understanding about your question, Nick?

[Walker]

Is that from Revelations, the supposed prophecies of Paul? Pretty nasty things to do to mere mortals for no other reason than not worshiping Yahweh. That's some God.

Worshiping God is doing, not pondering, and if you don't do as God says, the punishment unfolds naturally as a self-infliction, just as a wound heals naturally or festers not by your pondering, but by your doing. So you better behave, Gary.

[Walker]

I C



A question for you. Do you believe a personal God is concerned with subjective human conceptions of justice as opposed to universal conceptions of justice we still don't understand and remain closed to?

I would say that conceptions of "justice" can be measured against the standard of God's objective nature and His justice.

Does that address your question? It's worded a bit oddly, to me.

Let me try it from another direction. If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

All things exist within infinite potentiality and manifest when conditions are ripe. Justice exists outside of time within infinite potentiality. Justice manifests when the condition for justice is ripe. Human beans are an element of that condition. No humans, no justice manifests, thus none exists within the realm of duality without humans.

Justice is an aspect of mind, and humans have the capacity to access that portion of mind. Humans can touch that portion of the elephant.

[Walker]

"So, when that man steals your water: go gunnin' for him."

But if you fire 'til he's done in, they may catch you at the border.

Sounds risky man. I dunno.

Then you gotta go back Jack and do it again because those wheels, they keep turnin' 'round and 'round. Gotta 'splain it again.

[Age]

Let me try it from another direction. If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

Assumin' men are the only ensouled beings in the universe...

If God is outside the universe: His one conduit for justice, us, is gone, so no.

If God is inside the universe: yes.

If God is the universe: yes.

...assumin' God is a person and not just some ball of hippy-drippy, feel-good, love energy.

LOL

This one here OBVIOUSLY did NOT SEE the CONTRADICTION here.

[Walker]

burn in Hell for eternity

That does appear to be a stumbling block of comprehension for atheists.

They say it's unfair. Then they run to it.

But here's what the Scriptures say:

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Now, one can argue that they don't think that that is what is going to happen. They can argue that IF it were to happen, they don't think they're bad enough to deserve it. They can argue that they don't understand. They can argue that, like Harry, they don't think it's "just."

But they can't argue that that is not what the Book says. It is what it is. And whatever Christianity has to say about it, that's it.

A different "they" can also argue that they deserve the worst, that hell can always provide fresh torments, and there is no redemption. This is the dark night of the soul in which God is found, and there is no doubt about it.

Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I’m hearing here that the names of those who do all acts of life are in the book of life, and those who do acts of death are not there. Thus it follows if one acts to promote life, then one’s name is written in the book of life. And, if one acts to promote death, one’s name is not in the book of life and one is thrown into the lake of fire. Thus it follows that the names of those who awaken spirit, the spirit builders, are written into the book of life; and it follows that the names of the spirit crushers are absent.

[Walker]

Hell only exists in the present. Causation puts you in hell. As a human you have the capacity to know, and the means of knowing, the causation that will put you in hell right now. The way out of hell is also caused, right now. Some causes created by your actions will land you in hell now and all the nows you can ever know. Other causes by your actions will not spare you. Still other causes by your actions will remove you from hell you are in now, while you’re still able to act. Christianity explains the causes and the effects.

Oh, but we have IC who tells us that hell is eternal and follows death. Are you here contradicting the Bible? Is this your ALTERNATIVE interpretation of the sacred texts written in stone and unwavering in their translation?

No, Silly. What I wrote supports eternal hell following death, plain as day. You study it and you will understand.

[Age]

Let's start at the top. The first Commandment:

Exodus 20:1-3 “And God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me.'”

Okay, you tell me [and henry]: does the Deist God count?

You have the commandment. How do you read it?

Isn't it very obvious that the commandment allows that there is but one God? So it rules out making up alternate gods, or adding gods, to the God of Israel.

Now, somebody who takes that commandment can discuss the nature and character of that God, or His expectations, and even His identity. What's clear, if we take that commandment seriously, is that no one is permitted to be either an Atheist or a Polytheist. Nor is such a one going to believe in a God that is not the God of that particular commandment...assuming he takes it as a "commandment."

As to whether or not the God of the Bible, and hence of that commandment, is Henry's God, you'll have to ask Henry. It's not my job to declare that for him; he is of age and capability to speak to that.

But when I go to discuss THAT God with 'you', "immanuel can", 'you' cower, run away, and hide, and this is just because 'you' do NOT KNOW the REAL God AT ALL.

In Fact IF 'you' Truly LISTENED to God, or 'I', then 'you' CERTAINLY would NOT be expressing and TELLING the RUBBISH that 'you' have been here, in this forum.

[Belinda]

Let me try it from another direction. If the earth and everything on it were destroyed by a collision with a massive asteroid, would justice continue to exist in our universe?

Assumin' men are the only ensouled beings in the universe...

If God is outside the universe: His one conduit for justice, us, is gone, so no.

If God is inside the universe: yes.

If God is the universe: yes.

...assumin' God is a person and not just some ball of hippy-drippy, feel-good, love energy.

I forget how to do the yellow thumbs up. I endorse the above.