Skip wrote:And I will be interested to hear your advice to young persons, right after you've done 5 years of material suffering
"The long, dark teatime of the soul"
I'm getting to like you Skip.
Skip wrote:And I will be interested to hear your advice to young persons, right after you've done 5 years of material suffering
Two hours, 5 minutes mate at most. That said I take your points.Felasco wrote:
Perhaps this forum could serve as an example. It's ok to spend 2 hours trying to write the very best post we can, challenging ourselves etc. But if when it's done it turns out that the post actually sucks and nobody likes it, oh well, a shrug and a smile are the best remedy.
Incidentally The Long Dark Tea Time of the Soul is a great book I heartily recommend it along side Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency.(Arising UK - you just like the nod at Douglas Adams, 'coz he's one of your own. One of the best, I'll grant.)
1. How to counter suffering came about starting when philosophies such as Buddhism, Cynicism, Stoicism, Existentialism, and other forms of aestheticism came about, which did, I believe, help people cope with the whatever type of suffering there it. The numbers have still not really increased in terms of the majority of the world population, but then again most people don't look at philosophy or spirituality for answers.Skip wrote:Of course, Wandering Lands didn't just fail to define suffering. He never explained what's "good", how 'good for you' differs from 'desirable' or even from 'bad'. By what criteria can we tell good and bad apart; how do we distinguish common human aspirations from spiritual ones? Most importantly, why it's good to do so.
Has suffering always been good, or did it become good at some definite time? Is the good-for-you-ness of suffering a universal phenomenon or a strictly human one, or peculiar to modern civilization? Most significantly, if suffering has always been a good, why is it - and how did it come about - that all organisms on this planet, from the beginning of prehistory, have tried to avoid it? When and how did we learn that all living things had got their values backwards?
And how, so late in evolution, are we to reverse this hard-wired response?
Yes, I get that you have a hole in your psychic gut. I get that most imaginative youth do, at some point. The scientifically inclined fill it with knowledge about the cosmos or zinc or bacteria; the literary scribble it out of their system; the romantic fall in love a few dozen times; the industrious build things and grow stuff; the political rally and organize it away; tree-huggers release it into the wild. Why/how is the yogi solution better than any of these?
(Arising UK - you just like the nod at Douglas Adams, 'coz he's one of your own. One of the best, I'll grant.)
I think as trite as it may sound that suffering does make us stronger, and suffering is the natural condition. There are few people in this world who have contributed to it that never suffered. That said of course you would not wish suffering on people, but it is what is, and how you surmount it is your personal triumph nonetheless.
For me, suffering comes about when people mainly want things, ad they try to reach it and they crave it so much that when they never reach it, they fall into despair. It also has to do with having too much high of expectations, and always thinking that it's easy to do regardless of the difficulties. It's pretty much a recurring thing, so I don't really think that there's an absolute beginning of it, as it happened to different types of people in different periods in our history.
Anyways, the reason why it is good is not because it is desirable, but because it is a test, and an opportunity to try and see if you have the critical thinking skills and the overall strength to cope with, and not let it sow your demise. Once you diminish the emotional reaction of suffering, you can look at it objectively so that thenect time abadfeeling comes along, you'd be able to try and identify it. It is true on the individual scale, as well as the societal scale when it comes to politics and other social issues that we face. This is not to say that you won't go through a demise; just not something that can result in anything serious such as death or some other mishap.
4. People have always knew and have been conscious about the progressing deccadence of civilization and the masses in them, and they've tried to resist and convince others to resist the evermore amounting onslaught of humanity by ill willed men. They've died, and/or have suffered torture and prisons because of this, which are forms of suffering by the way. It was their will power that helped them (at least most) get through this, as even though they've died, many have been awakened by them (take the scientists and the philosophers of the Enlightenment era, for example, or takewhatever figure in any era who have died for their cause).
5. Well first, we would have to go through our own inner darkness, as spiritual growth is never brought into fruition without periods of depression and anxiety. You also can develop close relationships with whatever person you know around, and try to connect with whatever is close to you in orderto build a Social Organism (see my "A Social Organism" post on the Political Philosophy section).
6. What do you ean by "yogi solution"? You mean what I've said about the material world?
That's a fair summary, and it can be boiled down further, to a single word. Suffering is thought. Every experience we would call suffering is made of thought. (Pain is a better word for unwanted physical sensations.)For me, suffering comes about when people mainly want things, ad they try to reach it and they crave it so much that when they never reach it, they fall into despair.
Those philosophies didn't "come about": they were invented by sophisticated civilized humans - at different times and in different places.WanderingLands wrote: 1. How to counter suffering came about starting when philosophies such as Buddhism, Cynicism, Stoicism, Existentialism, and other forms of aestheticism came about,
which did, I believe, help people cope with the whatever type of suffering there it.
Really? 2.1 billion Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, +/_500 million Buddhists, 600,000 Rastafarians, 23 million Sikhs, 14 million Jews, their various deities know how many native practitioners of how many religions in Africa and the Americas, not to mention 15 million who identify as Spiritualist.The numbers have still not really increased in terms of the majority of the world population, but then again most people don't look at philosophy or spirituality for answers.
But why do elk and octopuses avoid it? How did it start? If pain was good, why did all per-human creatures turn against it?3. The reason why people tend to abhor it is because of the amount of weight they feel that they're carrying, and also the fact that the often have no clue of how to cope with and not let it wreck them. People naturally do not want bad luck happening it to them, and yet every individual on this planet (including you and me) just unfortunately end up in that spot.
What, like a cup of water? They haven't given you any for three days and then put the cup just beyond your reach. Learning to love that would take some fancy philosophizing!For me, suffering comes about when people mainly want things, ad they try to reach it and they crave it so much that when they never reach it, they fall into despair.
and all tests are good by definition. If you Fail, that's good, because it gives you the chance to suffer some more.Anyways, the reason why it is good is not because it is desirable, but because it is a test,
I'm guessing you wouldn't get a standing ovation in Stretcher Bay 2 - not least because the patients are mostly unable to stand. Even if they could, most terminal cancer patients wouldn't buy this:Once you diminish the emotional reaction of suffering, you can look at it objectively
Some people can manage pain with self-hypnosis and similar brain tricks. If you know how to do that and can teach it, by all means, do.so that thenect time abadfeeling comes along, you'd be able to try and identify it.
That, right there, is my quote for the week!This is not to say that you won't go through a demise; just not something that can result in anything serious such as death or some other mishap.
No kidding! I suspect most of the martyrs weren't opposing soft ice cream or X-boxes. They were mostly killed, will-power or not. They're being killed right now. So are their followers, most of whom may not even understand the cause, and a whole lot of bystanders who don't even know there is a cause.4. People have always knew and have been conscious about the progressing deccadence of civilization and the masses in them, and they've tried to resist and convince others to resist the evermore amounting onslaught of humanity by ill willed men. They've died, and/or have suffered torture and prisons because of this, which are forms of suffering by the way.
Yeah, all that guff about rising above material desire; you'll be all better if only you stop wanting things. Lots of people get over their dark teatime by wanting and doing something positive. Many say hi-bye and keep truckin'. Many don't have it at all.6. What do you mean by "yogi solution"? You mean what I've said about the material world?
1. Philosophy is about reflecting on existence from different angles, and thus you are not really "inventing" Philosophy. Also, I do know that they came about in different periods; I was just listing them off as examples.Skip wrote: Those philosophies didn't "come about": they were invented by sophisticated civilized humans - at different times and in different places.
None of them "counter" suffering: they attempt various explanations and excuses for it.
As I have been saying many times, I'm not talking about desiring it; I am talking about coping with it. Desire and coping with it to not be so affected by it (in other words, looking at it objectively and not emotionally) are two different things.
Whatever kind of suffering there is?
A few developed a taste for self-flagellation; more exaggerated their little psychological twinges into a drama, starring them. But neither suffering nor people were reduced and the desire for pain never really caught on.
I'm not talking about religion; I'm talking about spirituality, as in more specifically, common teachings and foundations that are present within all religions (ie. belief in God, doing good unto others). You also ignored the fact that I mentioned the word "philosophy" in it, which is a blunder, because most of the people practicing their faiths are ignorant of their underlying philosophies, such as mainly the interpretation of scriptures, to make since of why "their" religion is best (you see this especially in the Judeo/Christian/Islamic trichonomy).Really? 2.1 billion Christians, 1.6 billion Muslims, 1 billion Hindus, +/_500 million Buddhists, 600,000 Rastafarians, 23 million Sikhs, 14 million Jews, their various deities know how many native practitioners of how many religions in Africa and the Americas, not to mention 15 million who identify as Spiritualist.
I'm not talking about the larger biology and their handlings of suffering, so I do not understand why you would mention them. Again, there is no absolute or definitive point where suffering started. The reason why suffering starts (in terms of different cultures forming in different periods of time) is because they desire things that are out of reach, and there are many other factors to this, which leads them to no longer identify with existence and fall apart.But why do elk and octopuses avoid it? How did it start? If pain was good, why did all per-human creatures turn against it?
I believe that what I'm talking about is much more complicated than that, and so I recommend that you read about the above philosophies that I've mentioned.What, like a cup of water? They haven't given you any for three days and then put the cup just beyond your reach. Learning to love that would take some fancy philosophizing!
I know. Dramatizing that very common transition young people go through between pubescence and intellectual identity.Felasco wrote:Skip, pain (body) and suffering (mind) are not the same thing. I believe WanderingLands is addressing the later, and not the former.
I wholeheartedly agree.Wandering Lands
... but it is very tiring when I have to discuss things with people who blab and ridicule things that they've never even touched.
I would like to give you the entire story, but I am not going to do so as it is your journey, and not mine.Skip wrote:
But he didn't make a clear distinction, or define his parameters, while hinting that those other kinds of suffering would go away if the prisoners and patients read the right books.
I am not merely doing those things that which you describe, and neither are any of the philosophies that I site. I am just observing myself and my faults, and looking into history, as well as look at my surroundings in society, to find the faults of others, and compare it to mine.Skip wrote:
it irritates the hell out of me when someone utterly clueless about the real pain, misery, agony, terror, horror, grief, brutality, starvation, injury, loss, illness, physical and mental torture in the world - a great deal of which could be mitigated by real action in the world - appropriates it, plunks his own personal stamp of approval on and waves a magic wand at it.
Suffering is the human condition Skip, for people of all ages and places. Apologies, but you seem to have no clue on this particular topic.I know. Dramatizing that very common transition young people go through between pubescence and intellectual identity.
Books and experts etc tend to reinforce the impression that suffering is complex, a problem to analyze, a puzzle to be unraveled, something else to think about etc. Such things deal with the content of thought. The general idea is that if we just get the content of thought right, the suffering will go away.I shall give some resources, and some things to search, for you to start off in your journey. They are:
If you say so. Pity to have wasted half a century of social activism and service, but there it is - I shall go clueless to my grave. My "journey" is nearing its end, and I doubt I'll spend the remaining time rereading poxy permanent adolescent ubermenches.Felasco wrote: Suffering is the human condition Skip, for people of all ages and places. Apologies, but you seem to have no clue on this particular topic.