Consciousness of plants

[Bernard]

http://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancus ... gence.html

[chaz wyman]

http://www.ted.com/talks/stefano_mancus ... gence.html

No no no.

Plants are not conscious. You are abusing language.

All of the actions of plants are automatic. All actions of plants are explicable completely in terms of necessity.
Plants do not reflect on their actions. When light strikes a leaf there are mechanisms that come into play that directly cause the leaf to orient itself towards that light. Evolution has advantaged plants that have maximised their leave to do this. The plant has no choice, it just happens.

When the venus flytrap snaps shut, it is not due to the pant being conscious of the (ahem!) 'snail' - the snail trips a trigger and the plant automatically responds.

Stanfano Mancuso does say some ridiculous things but nowhere in his presentation does he claim that any plant is "conscious."

What is the matter with people they have to believe in magic?

Get over yourself!

[Bernard]

It looks like I triggered something here, just like the snail. Can I escape?

Mancuso's presentation is on intelligence, if intelligence doesn't equate with consciousness I don't know what does.

Where does science define the starting point of consciousness? Animals? Animal life has been toted as beginning somewhere around cellular level with amoebas. They are described as living things, as are all cells - and sometimes virus's are too. In my books something that is alive is conscious of itself, somehow or other, and not just a physical automation. Now if a cell is conscious, its rather rich too say that a plant which is composed of billions of cells all working in co-operation for the tree, just as they do in us, is not.

[chaz wyman]

It looks like I triggered something here, just like the snail. Can I escape?

Mancuso's presentation is on intelligence, if intelligence doesn't equate with consciousness I don't know what does.

Do you think a computer is conscious?

]Why don't you think about it?

Where does science define the starting point of consciousness? Animals? Animal life has been toted as beginning somewhere around cellular level with amoebas. They are described as living things, as are all cells - and sometimes virus's are too. In my books something that is alive is conscious of itself, somehow or other, and not just a physical automation. Now if a cell is conscious, its rather rich too say that a plant which is composed of billions of cells all working in co-operation for the tree, just as they do in us, is not.

I would have thought the ability to reflect might have something to do with it.

[Bernard]

A computer is as intelligent as any other lump of matter and not conscious of itself as a sentient entity.

The ability to reflect is a way of maintaining sense of identity and is unique to humans as far as I know. A sense of identity however may be maintained in a myriad of ways, imo. A predator mammal may maintain it through sheer instinctual drives, a bee through the entire hive it belongs to, initiated by sound cues and those cute little bee dances. They have no need of self-reflection. Reflection is exclusive to us, the solitary animal; vulnerable and naked, unable to digest little of the raw wild food other animals are happy with. Reflection enables us to assess and observe a situation as many times as we like until we hit upon a solution: cooking, wheel invention, etcetera. Without this ability we would be like lions without teeth and claws. Useless.

Reason is where the centre of our intelligence is focussed, but is not intelligence proper, so intelligence may manifest otherwise. The intelligence of a tree may be within its growing tips. The intelligence of a bird may be within the wings, its flight ability.

[Cerveny]

It is not easy to disprove consciousness/feeling of the plants. Are they happy when they are moist and insolated or they do not care?

[John]

There's nothing to suggest plant consciousness in the video.

One bit I found amusing was when he said "They are also able to play. They are really playing. These are young sunflowers, and what they are doing cannot be described with any other terms than playing." And then with his next sentence he goes on to describe it in terms other than playing when he says "They are training themselves, as many young animals do, to the adult life, where they will be called to track the sun all the day." (the transcript feature is great for quoting )

[chaz wyman]

It is not easy to disprove consciousness/feeling of the plants. Are they happy when they are moist and insolated or they do not care?

Just like the silly thread on telepathy there is no case to disprove.

There is no evidence of consciousness.

[John]

What about telepathic plants?

[chaz wyman]

What about telepathic plants?

Hang on- I'll just ask my Hydrangea!!

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Nope- He does understand what I mean by consciousness.

[Cerveny]

It is not easy to disprove consciousness/feeling of the plants. Are they happy when they are moist and insolated or they do not care?

Just like the silly thread on telepathy there is no case to disprove.

There is no evidence of consciousness.

Just like the silly to do disprove it :( Have you been ever incarnated into the plant you are able to claim it?

[chaz wyman]

It is not easy to disprove consciousness/feeling of the plants. Are they happy when they are moist and insolated or they do not care?

Just like the silly thread on telepathy there is no case to disprove.

There is no evidence of consciousness.

Just like the silly to do disprove it Have you been ever incarnated into the plant you are able to claim it?

Dah no.!

1) What do you mean by consciousness?
2) Can you show that any other living thing has it?
3) Can you show that you have it?
4) Do you have the slightest reason to attribute it to plants?

[HexHammer]

It is not easy to disprove consciousness/feeling of the plants. Are they happy when they are moist and insolated or they do not care?

..and excatly how do you know?

[John]

When did the "wishful thinking/wouldn't it be interesting just for the sake of it" position become the default? Did I miss a meeting?

[chaz wyman]

I talk to the trees
But they don't listen to me
I talk to the stars
But they never hear me

The breeze hasn't time
To stop, and hear what I say
I talk to them all
In vain

But suddenly, my words
Reach someone elses ear
At someone elses heart
Strings too

I tell you my dreams
And while you're listening to me
I suddenly see them
Come true

I can see us some April night
Looking out across a rollin' farm
Having supper in the candlelight
Walking later, arm in arm

Then I'll tell you
How I pass the day
Thinking mainly how
The night would be

Then I'll try to find
The words to say
All the things you
Mean to me

I tell you my dreams
And while you're
Listening to me
I suddenly see them
Come true

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gh2UzWgSw3Q