CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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FlashDangerpants
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CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Part 1: Continued rambling preambling (Skip this if you don't like long posts)

This is a continuation of a very sensible effort to construct a moral-KFC-Bucket-Thing that is less shit than the morality-proper-KFC that VA has been serving up for a decade or so, and in so doing, perhaps we might also help mister Can to understand the difference between that which is contingent upon something (such as moral norms that derive from evolution or culture) and that which is untethered and entirely random.

In CH1 we established that the proposed morality-proper-WillBouwman-Pete-IWP-Sculptor-ATLA FSK contends that the BDM model of human psychology explains why people in the real world would wish to live according to moral principles at all, and that it is literally sense-less to talk of morality in any terms that place moral motivation in doubt because we must have strayed into talking about some other thing entirely if we are there.

In CH2 we covered the ways in which it is really quite easy to put together a non-teleological explanation for how morality would be constructed from the ground up rather than heaven down. To borrow an analogy from the recently deceased mister Dennett, if the construction can be explained with reference to cranes we have no need to fantasise about skyhooks.

At the end of that second chapter, it became clear that we had probably laid sufficient groundwork for now, and could look at what lies on the next layer up. What goes into making actual judgements, and what informs the content of our moral propositions? I posited then that I would likely make a false-Kantian sort of move in the next part, and it seems I haven't changed my mind, so here goes....

Part 2: The basic rationale...

There's a discontinuity between Kant's two critiques that rarely gets a mention. The pure is a defensive work; it has an ulterior motive to carve the largest possible slice of the universe around us and to keep science out of it. The practical faces no scientific competition, so the move that thwarts science in the former does not really need to be performed in the latter, at least not for Kant's purpose. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't avail ourselves if we are in the mood.

For the uninitiated, Kant draws two lines through the understanding in the Critique of pure reason. One distinction is between the priori and the posteriori. That bit everybody should understand already, a priori is one of the philosophy words that Jacobi uses when he wants to sound educated, if he can do it, so can you. But to underline the matter, a priori truths are known in advance of any experience, while the posteriori follows up behind.

The other relevant distinction lies between the synthetic and the analytic. We may know if an analytic proposition is true by looking at its relation to the concepts expressed ("all bachelors are unmarried men"), whereas for a synthetic proposition we must look for its relation to the world ("All creatures with hearts have kidneys").

Putting aside whatever weird things Kuhn might have got up to, and restricting ourselves to clumsy paradigmatic terms, science can generally be thought of as dealing with synthetic statements and generally posteriori knowings to whatever extent such things are available. Thus, for Kant to pull off his great heist, he needed to move something important into the Synthetic a priori quadrant of this little diagram. <--- youtube video I stole this picture from

Image

Part 3: Kant's categories...

With that move made, Kant was able to assert that we are compelled to view the world around us through certain lenses which are required for any of it to be explicable at all, these are the categories of understanding.

Image

I have no need here to delve into some of the questionable directions Kant took this in, nor to concern myself with Quine or any other carping about the whole notion of a synthetic/analytic distinction.

I do feel that there is a some basic truth that we all can get in the idea that we are not able to participate in the experience of any world around us if we are not already set up to recognise that objects have extension with space, that they have height and width and they weigh something and so on. Does Kant draw a fully distinct line around all and only that which cannot be learned through experience but instead is required to even have experiences here? Probably not, but the general idea works well enough, so I now intend to steal it for my own purposes.

Part 3: Synthetic a priori moral categories of understanding

What we are in search of here is something that undergirds moral perceptions or intuitions, it is far from evident that we could possibly find something by virtue of which moral propositions are true or false. For now that latter can must be kicked once more down the road. We are loking for an equivalent to the notion that one must be primed already to see categories of unity, plurality and totality before one can begin to learn that 3 is more than 2 but less than 7.

Somebody working the other end of the problem, doing a top down skyhooks sort of solution would likely apply their limited scope here. A utilitarian for instance works to exclude the vast majority of our normal moral experience. His main categories being nothing but right and wrong, and the only subcategories being maximised pleasure or minimised. Take any other of the big moral theories and what you are seeing is the same radical pruning operation.

My aim in this post, and all along, has been simply to show that these constrained positions are universally bullshit, that all of the stuff we morally desire must be taken into account because it all reflects what we are required to percieve just to be able to join in this normal part of everyday human life.

One obvious category of moral understanding is equity. The unequal distribution of rights, or favours, or resources is the commonest of scandals. Many non human animals show an awareness of fairness and equity, and so do some children. The problem with equity of course is that another obvious category is desert. When we do not wish to distribute rights or resources equally, we usually say that is because somebody is less deserving than somebody else. So if we are obsessed with diagrams like Kant is, perhaps one quadrant goes to Fairness, with equity and desert as sub categories.

I don't share this formalised diagrams obsession though, so that's probably my only foray into that sort of thing. I don't expect there to be a satisfying neat little bundle of moral categories, the whole thing is really far too messy. But at this point I will open the floor to see if anybody who does like neat bundles has any proposals before I make a mess.
Impenitent
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Impenitent »

there are degrees of bachelors...

would synthesizer a priori be sheet music of an unheard piece?

yeah, Kant has his "goggles" through which the outer world exists (space/time)

universal moral- avoid the universally bullshit (but even that doesn't fly...)

-Imp
Atla
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Atla »

Imo bottom-up and top-down approaches to morality are both insufficient, they have to be combined into one system.

We need top-down restrictions like: let's not nuke ourselves into oblivion, let's not overpopulate, let's not overheat the planet, let's not destroy the biosphere. Generally: ensure the continuity of humanity and biosphere, and maximize their well-being / minimize their suffering.

And then we can try to build a bottom-up road that uses as much of the inherent human moral behaviour ("moral desire" etc.) as possible, that will lead us through the above top-down restrictive window. And the rest of bottom-up morality can be more freely established.

Hume, Kant and others lived in a time when the destruction of the world wasn't an issue, things have changed..
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Atla wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:06 am Imo bottom-up and top-down approaches to morality are both insufficient, they have to be combined into one system.
That's probably the broad topic of Ch4 or Ch5. I haven't really dsecided what thing comes next yet but that's a stop along the way for sure.
Atla wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:06 am We need top-down restrictions like: let's not nuke ourselves into oblivion, let's not overpopulate, let's not overheat the planet, let's not destroy the biosphere. Generally: ensure the continuity of humanity and biosphere, and maximize their well-being / minimize their suffering.

And then we can try to build a bottom-up road that uses as much of the inherent human moral behaviour ("moral desire" etc.) as possible, that will lead us through the above top-down restrictive window. And the rest of bottom-up morality can be more freely established.

Hume, Kant and others lived in a time when the destruction of the world wasn't an issue, things have changed..
But at this stage, I am concerned with the meta level of meta-ethics, the lower strata of the whole edifice. When I say we can do this with a bottom up view, I am mainly pointing out that we don't need to invoke any divine command theories such as that which mister Can is waving, just to do something simple like explain why people want to do good instead of bad, or why we even think that there is a good and a bad to be doing. So I am presently looking for the minimum amount of stuff necessary to have a moral feelings or desires at all.

After that might come questions of how we perform logic on such things such as to say that if we don't approve of stealing, then we also don't approve getting somebody else to steal for us. This change in level would again invite a competion between top down and bottom up forms of explanation. God botherers would of course invoke God at this level as well for instance.
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:04 pm <holy fuck, what a load of bullshit>
A priori categories of moral understanding?!? There's no such thing, you fucking retard.

There are no categories a priori the moral categories. The a priori connotation of every damn word you are using.

Understanding - GOOD! Moral!
Misunderstanding - BAAAD! Immoral!
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Atla's point about combining moral approaches into a convergent system merits more consideration.

If we look at what Kant was doing when he systemised the synthetic a priori into being, it was to create order. This is why VA bangs on about Kant's supposed completeness; he arranges it such that every proposition of pure reason has a place and fits within an orderly contiguous system (at least he does so in his own view, later logicians would of course ruin all that).

If he were able to, surely Kant would have pulled off the same for practical reason? To form an orderly contiguous whole out of the apparent confusion is his deal after all. Yet the Critique Practical and the Groundwork do no such thing. Instead Kant set about finding some ruling principle from which moral reason could be grounded.

As an antirealist, I am of course likely to argue that if we try to find the basic set of required moral categories, there would be no method of systematising it into an orderly and contiguous whole, and that Kant alrady thought of this 2 hundred and something years ago. It would presumably go very badly for me if somebody were able to put together such a system without losing something important.

So the next a priori category that springs to mind is Order. We seem to require tidiness, reliabilitiy and predictability in any form of reasoning we look to. In morality, most of the things we consider bad are also things which under some imagined circumstance we consider surprising. Often we look upon surprise as reason for disapprobation all by itself.

The root of morality is therefore conformity. But the root of morality is also still fairness. I estimate there are about 20 of these roots of morality once we begin to think about it. And if any of those are incommensurable either directly or in combination, they cannot be integrated into a contiguous whole. The question then becomes whether there is some way in which they are reducible.
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Thu May 02, 2024 11:03 am Atla's point about combining moral approaches into a convergent system merits more consideration.

If we look at what Kant was doing when he systemised the synthetic a priori into being, it was to create order. This is why VA bangs on about Kant's supposed completeness; he arranges it such that every proposition of pure reason has a place and fits within an orderly contiguous system (at least he does so in his own view, later logicians would of course ruin all that).

If he were able to, surely Kant would have pulled off the same for practical reason? To form an orderly contiguous whole out of the apparent confusion is his deal after all. Yet the Critique Practical and the Groundwork do no such thing. Instead Kant set about finding some ruling principle from which moral reason could be grounded.

As an antirealist, I am of course likely to argue that if we try to find the basic set of required moral categories, there would be no method of systematising it into an orderly and contiguous whole, and that Kant alrady thought of this 2 hundred and something years ago. It would presumably go very badly for me if somebody were able to put together such a system without losing something important.

So the next a priori category that springs to mind is Order. We seem to require tidiness, reliabilitiy and predictability in any form of reasoning we look to. In morality, most of the things we consider bad are also things which under some imagined circumstance we consider surprising. Often we look upon surprise as reason for disapprobation all by itself.

The root of morality is therefore conformity. But the root of morality is also still fairness. I estimate there are about 20 of these roots of morality once we begin to think about it. And if any of those are incommensurable either directly or in combination, they cannot be integrated into a contiguous whole. The question then becomes whether there is some way in which they are reducible.
Full circle back to Platonic Forms to which to conform to.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Are we striving to conform to the Ideal Human Form?
What sort of qualities does such a being conform to?
What sort of pursuits does such a conformist pursue?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Another way to view this is to consider the very many ways in which philosophers have attempted to define the proper way to locate that which is morally desirable. There's usually a prima facie plausibility to the matter, and in general it is upon closer inspection that we find there is something important missing from the picture. Handily there is always some other philosopher with a competing explanation that is dedicated to that exact missing link.

So we have classical deontology which is all about following proper rules. That lacks a proper regard for outcomes, and thus we get consequentialism which is all about outcomes, sadly to such an extent that it endorses horrible personality traits so long as the desirable outcomes are acheived .... which brings us to virtue ethics which is some wishy washy shit about what the right sort of person would do at some given time.

Under the current explanation, all of these are sort of true, even the stupid wishy washy one that doesn't really say anything. But the point is that morality does involve rules and obligations and it is dumb to try to explain it away without them. Nice outcomes are an unavoidable concern... except sometimes when a certain rule just cannot be put aside. And greed is a bad motive for pursuing some end at least if altruism is also available for pursuing it. Usually.

Is it possible that we have all these important and largely convincing but sadly insufficient methods for determining moral desirability because the whole edifice is constructed of ill fitting parts that cohere to no general design and cannot be funnelled into a streamlined whole?
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri May 03, 2024 11:55 am Another way to view this is to consider the very many ways in which philosophers have attempted to define the proper way to locate that which is morally desirable. There's usually a prima facie plausibility to the matter, and in general it is upon closer inspection that we find there is something important missing from the picture. Handily there is always some other philosopher with a competing explanation that is dedicated to that exact missing link.

So we have classical deontology which is all about following proper rules. That lacks a proper regard for outcomes, and thus we get consequentialism which is all about outcomes, sadly to such an extent that it endorses horrible personality traits so long as the desirable outcomes are acheived .... which brings us to virtue ethics which is some wishy washy shit about what the right sort of person would do at some given time.

Under the current explanation, all of these are sort of true, even the stupid wishy washy one that doesn't really say anything. But the point is that morality does involve rules and obligations and it is dumb to try to explain it away without them. Nice outcomes are an unavoidable concern... except sometimes when a certain rule just cannot be put aside. And greed is a bad motive for pursuing some end at least if altruism is also available for pursuing it. Usually.

Is it possible that we have all these important and largely convincing but sadly insufficient methods for determining moral desirability because the whole edifice is constructed of ill fitting parts that cohere to no general design and cannot be funnelled into a streamlined whole?
Insufficient methods my ass.

Could you explain why Truth gets so much airtime in philosophy, but not Falsehood.
Why is one being pursued for centuries and the other one doesn't even have footnotes.

Seems like some sort of systemic bias, don't you think?

Seems like a choice has been made a priori. Almost as if one of those two pursuits carries a moral connotation; and the other one carries an immoral connotation.

I don't know. This stuff is all beyond my paygrade.
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Sculptor »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2024 10:04 pm Part 1: Continued rambling preambling (Skip this if you don't like long posts)

This is a continuation of a very sensible effort to construct a moral-KFC-Bucket-Thing that is less shit than the morality-proper-KFC that VA has been serving up for a decade or so, and in so doing, perhaps we might also help mister Can to understand the difference between that which is contingent upon something (such as moral norms that derive from evolution or culture) and that which is untethered and entirely random.

In CH1 we established that the proposed morality-proper-WillBouwman-Pete-IWP-Sculptor-ATLA FSK contends that the BDM model of human psychology explains why people in the real world would wish to live according to moral principles at all, and that it is literally sense-less to talk of morality in any terms that place moral motivation in doubt because we must have strayed into talking about some other thing entirely if we are there.
No sure why you think my name should appear here.
Not even sure you are making a clear point here,
BDM model of human psychology is one aspect of moral behaviour, the more important one is cultural doctrines, and the contingencies of history which modify any behaviour set beyind recognition.
The model of VA to impose any morally objective set of rules would entail the BDM model of human psychology and pretty much ignore the mor important facts of social and cultural conditions.

In CH2 we covered the ways in which it is really quite easy to put together a non-teleological explanation for how morality would be constructed from the ground up rather than heaven down. To borrow an analogy from the recently deceased mister Dennett, if the construction can be explained with reference to cranes we have no need to fantasise about skyhooks.

At the end of that second chapter, it became clear that we had probably laid sufficient groundwork for now, and could look at what lies on the next layer up. What goes into making actual judgements, and what informs the content of our moral propositions? I posited then that I would likely make a false-Kantian sort of move in the next part, and it seems I haven't changed my mind, so here goes....

Part 2: The basic rationale...

There's a discontinuity between Kant's two critiques that rarely gets a mention. The pure is a defensive work; it has an ulterior motive to carve the largest possible slice of the universe around us and to keep science out of it. The practical faces no scientific competition, so the move that thwarts science in the former does not really need to be performed in the latter, at least not for Kant's purpose. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't avail ourselves if we are in the mood.

For the uninitiated, Kant draws two lines through the understanding in the Critique of pure reason. One distinction is between the priori and the posteriori. That bit everybody should understand already, a priori is one of the philosophy words that Jacobi uses when he wants to sound educated, if he can do it, so can you. But to underline the matter, a priori truths are known in advance of any experience, while the posteriori follows up behind.

The other relevant distinction lies between the synthetic and the analytic. We may know if an analytic proposition is true by looking at its relation to the concepts expressed ("all bachelors are unmarried men"), whereas for a synthetic proposition we must look for its relation to the world ("All creatures with hearts have kidneys").

Putting aside whatever weird things Kuhn might have got up to, and restricting ourselves to clumsy paradigmatic terms, science can generally be thought of as dealing with synthetic statements and generally posteriori knowings to whatever extent such things are available. Thus, for Kant to pull off his great heist, he needed to move something important into the Synthetic a priori quadrant of this little diagram. <--- youtube video I stole this picture from

Image

Part 3: Kant's categories...

With that move made, Kant was able to assert that we are compelled to view the world around us through certain lenses which are required for any of it to be explicable at all, these are the categories of understanding.

Image

I have no need here to delve into some of the questionable directions Kant took this in, nor to concern myself with Quine or any other carping about the whole notion of a synthetic/analytic distinction.

I do feel that there is a some basic truth that we all can get in the idea that we are not able to participate in the experience of any world around us if we are not already set up to recognise that objects have extension with space, that they have height and width and they weigh something and so on. Does Kant draw a fully distinct line around all and only that which cannot be learned through experience but instead is required to even have experiences here? Probably not, but the general idea works well enough, so I now intend to steal it for my own purposes.

Part 3: Synthetic a priori moral categories of understanding

What we are in search of here is something that undergirds moral perceptions or intuitions, it is far from evident that we could possibly find something by virtue of which moral propositions are true or false. For now that latter can must be kicked once more down the road. We are loking for an equivalent to the notion that one must be primed already to see categories of unity, plurality and totality before one can begin to learn that 3 is more than 2 but less than 7.

Somebody working the other end of the problem, doing a top down skyhooks sort of solution would likely apply their limited scope here. A utilitarian for instance works to exclude the vast majority of our normal moral experience. His main categories being nothing but right and wrong, and the only subcategories being maximised pleasure or minimised. Take any other of the big moral theories and what you are seeing is the same radical pruning operation.

My aim in this post, and all along, has been simply to show that these constrained positions are universally bullshit, that all of the stuff we morally desire must be taken into account because it all reflects what we are required to percieve just to be able to join in this normal part of everyday human life.

One obvious category of moral understanding is equity. The unequal distribution of rights, or favours, or resources is the commonest of scandals. Many non human animals show an awareness of fairness and equity, and so do some children.
NO IT'S MINE~!!!!
~you mean?
The problem with equity of course is that another obvious category is desert. When we do not wish to distribute rights or resources equally, we usually say that is because somebody is less deserving than somebody else. So if we are obsessed with diagrams like Kant is, perhaps one quadrant goes to Fairness, with equity and desert as sub categories.

I don't share this formalised diagrams obsession though, so that's probably my only foray into that sort of thing. I don't expect there to be a satisfying neat little bundle of moral categories, the whole thing is really far too messy. But at this point I will open the floor to see if anybody who does like neat bundles has any proposals before I make a mess.
I think our problem might be that VA thinks he is talking about Cranes but what he is in fact doing is imposing a sky hook supported by a set of very ideosyncratically modern endemic assumptions from his life experience - what was drummed into him from parents and schooling.
And what he thinks is analytic a priori is in fact synthetic a posteriori (I think!) .
What he feels based on his cultural conditioning he takes to be innate.
His argument falls easily enough when you consider that moralists for thousands of years have made the same mistake. Moderns find the crucifixion of JC puzzling since we no longer have an endmic assumtion about the meaning of sacrifice. 2000 years ago the endemic assumption that a crime, or sin would require a sacrifice was not a thing that was questionable; this failure of reason can be seen way into the medieval period where any sin could be practiced as long as you bought a scroll of paper from the Vatican called and Indulgence. This was one of Martin Luther's big complaints, and his revision of CHristianity caused 3 million deaths. Conflict between Xian sects still goes on to this day.
IN the modern day we have around the world a multiplicity of cultural contrasts all pushing for recognition. And here comes VA the saviour who thinks he can homogenise it.
:D
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Re: CH 3: a priori categories of moral understanding.

Post by Sculptor »

Atla wrote: Sun Apr 21, 2024 5:06 am Imo bottom-up and top-down approaches to morality are both insufficient, they have to be combined into one system.

We need top-down restrictions like: let's not nuke ourselves into oblivion, let's not overpopulate, let's not overheat the planet, let's not destroy the biosphere. Generally: ensure the continuity of humanity and biosphere, and maximize their well-being / minimize their suffering.

And then we can try to build a bottom-up road that uses as much of the inherent human moral behaviour ("moral desire" etc.) as possible, that will lead us through the above top-down restrictive window. And the rest of bottom-up morality can be more freely established.

Hume, Kant and others lived in a time when the destruction of the world wasn't an issue, things have changed..
When Flashpants says bottom up - he means unpacking moral behaviour in a somatic way; top down is that imposed by divine commands.
More like the difference between the Book of Life and the Book of God.

As for Hume and Kant. They lived in "interesting times". Genocide was in full swing in the Americas, whilst Napoleon was marching across Europe by the time Kant dropped his parrot.
Once again I do not think what Flashpants talks about with Kant and Hume's epistemologies as any less applicable because of the state of world affairs. Unless you have a different set of reflections on this that invalidates Kant, it all still works. What is and is not a priori does not change because of Green Politics.
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