Heaven and hell are not just "illusory"

[Veritas Aequitas]

Non-theism was there long long ago

Yes, but atheism did not exist as a mass movement before the French Revolution. It is the Catholic Church that created this challenge. The Catholic Church were so obnoxious that a frontal attack on their teachings was indeed necessary. The privileges of the noble class had to be abolished in France and in Europe. There was no way around that.

I believe there were already non-theists [atheist] long before 500BCE i.e. >2500 years ago.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#History

Of course, there were. However, they did not have to overcome the seemingly insurmountable obstacle of the Catholic Church.

Your understanding of why other people do not believe in God is wrong.
A belief in God [theism] is a psychological issue as described above, and non-theism [atheism] is an indifference to theism due to various reasons, i.e. based on a rational, intuitive belief there is no God or just couldn't care less about theism.

If you look around in the world and in its history, every practice that is universal, is simply part of our biological firmware, i.e. what Kant would call our innate intuition. Religion is universal. Marriage is universal. Clothing is universal. Cooking is universal. And so on. Therefore, believing that there is no God is contrary to our human nature. Our biological firmware is flexible enough to allow it, but it also allows for things like mismatching gender and sex. Our biological firmware is overly flexible. That is both a strength and a weakness.

All the world's problem related to humans in the past, at present, will be in the future, are all reducible to the human biological firmware.
Thus my point is humanity must focus on what is and the mechanisms of the biological firmware.
Are you familiar with the Human Connectome Project and the Human Genome Project.
see: https://www.humanconnectome.org/

You are very ignorant of your own self and own human nature but rather focus on religious beliefs which are not true of reality and human nature.

Because humanity is in its very early stages of moral evolution, morality was hijacked by religion which is net positive and optimal based on existing psychological constraints.

If religion does not hijack morality then the ruling mafia will. There is no Catholic Church anymore to oppress the lower classes or to favor the interests of nobility. Therefore, being against religion is no longer a tool against oppression. On the contrary, the ruling mafia does not like Islam. That is why Islam is a fantastic tool to neutralize oppression by the ruling mafia.

Your God laid down the most evil commands for believer to commit.

All respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.

Your religion sanction killing of non-believers upon the slightest threats [fasadin]. This is so evident, e.g. killing of non-believers even the drawings of cartoon as commanded by God in the main holy texts.

All respect is ultimately based on the fear for reprisals.

You see, the ruling mafia wants to intervene between husband and wife and also between parents and children. I want to neutralize that, because I do not want that. The ruling mafia have to stay out of my private life. So, the solution is to galvanize and weaponize two billion believers against the ruling mafia. Islam is as much a tool as a goal. The ruling mafia must learn to show respect. Repurposing Islam to inflict respect-instilling reprisals against the ruling mafia, is the perfect tool to that effect. The ruling mafia will learn, or else, they will be made to learn. The choice is theirs.

Whether it is the 'ruling mafia' or religions they have their pros and cons relative to time and conditions only but not for the future.
What is worst with your religion is its holy texts are immutable with no compromise in interpretations to the current and future conditions.
Whatever the 'ruling mafia' they are not constituted upon any immutable doctrines and dogmas, thus can be changed and rejected [abandoned] toward the better for the future.

I stated earlier

• In terms of rating of religion in terms of its moral competence, I would rate as the mainstream as follow;
  1. Buddhism
  2. Christianity
  3. Others
  4. Islam [evil laden] based on its doctrine is the worst.

Islam which is heavily evil laden is supposedly immutable, thus whatever evil as promoted will be eternal, i.e. cannot be changed for the better in the future.

What I have advocated is a generic morality-proper [inherent in all humans] independent of all religions and all mafia-ruling organizations and beliefs.
Morality-proper is absolutely good [no evil] for humanity.
I have raised >300 threads in the 'Ethical Theory' section in this forum to support my point re morality-proper.

[Age]

But there never have been any so-called 'preexisting universe'.

The universe or model of the natural numbers is preexisting.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_arithmetic

In mathematical logic, true arithmetic is the set of all true first-order statements about the arithmetic of natural numbers.[1] This is the theory associated with the standard model of the Peano axioms in the language of the first-order Peano axioms.

True arithmetic is the truth about the natural numbers. If you do not believe that it exists, then I don't know what to say.

Why would you even begin to presume such a thing?

By the way, so-called 'true arithmetic' is only a tiniest fraction of the Universe, itself.

I can still more or less understand that you do not believe that God exists.

Again, why would you even begin to presume such a thing?

The Catholic Church has successfully done its damage. The idea that true arithmetic would not exist, however, is baffling to me. Your disbelief is very strong. Congratulations!

What are you even on about here?

Why have you come to have so many False and Wrong presumptions here?

Could it be the case that you are being ignorant of what is actually irrefutably True here, while you keep 'making up theories and guesses'?

True arithmetic is irrefutably true, and by definition so.

Okay.

But, so-called 'true arithmetic' is again nothing at all but only a minuscule fraction of the Universe, Itself, and does not necessarily explain absolutely anything about the Universe, Itself.

Why do you seem to not be able to just understand and comprehend this Fact?

Your ignorance about mathematics is also irrefutably true. You understand absolutely fuckall but you still know everything better. How does one explain that level of arrogance?

Maybe it is your ignorance here, or is this not a possibility here?

[godelian]

You are very ignorant of your own self and own human nature but rather focus on religious beliefs which are not true of reality and human nature.

Before the French Revolution, the goal was to obliterate the Catholic Church and its class-based privileges, and the tool was atheism. As I have pointed out already, I am ok with that. It was useful to do that.

Nowadays, the goal is to obliterate the feminist ruling mafia and its interference in private family matters, and the tool is Islam.

Whether it is the 'ruling mafia' or religions they have their pros and cons relative to time and conditions only but not for the future.

I don't care. It is going to cost a hell of a lot dead bodies. But then again, dead body after dead body, the ruling mafia will painstakingly learn to stay out of private family matters.

What is worst with your religion is its holy texts are immutable with no compromise in interpretations to the current and future conditions.

That is not a bug. That is a feature.

Whatever the 'ruling mafia' they are not constituted upon any immutable doctrines and dogmas, thus can be changed and rejected [abandoned] toward the better for the future.

Yes, the ruling mafia will change, if only, because otherwise it will hurt. They will only change after licking their wounds, again and again.

I stated earlier

• In terms of rating of religion in terms of its moral competence, I would rate as the mainstream as follow;
  1. Buddhism
  2. Christianity
  3. Others
  4. Islam [evil laden] based on its doctrine is the worst.

In my take on the matter, Islam is the most useful religion for achieving the stated goal of removing the ruling mafia from private family affairs.

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

The Buddhists are in my impression too nebulous, while the Christians are just a bunch of simps who stand for nothing. I want action. I want a community that will actually make a stand. You have to engage the adversary in battle, break their backbone, and overrun their lines. Do you really want a Buddhist or Christian army for that purpose? Good luck with that!

Islam which is heavily evil laden is supposedly immutable, thus whatever evil as promoted will be eternal, i.e. cannot be changed for the better in the future.

Islam enforces respect. Therefore, Islam is superbly fit for purpose. The adversary will cave in or else be made cave in. The choice is theirs.

What I have advocated is a generic morality-proper [inherent in all humans] independent of all religions and all mafia-ruling organizations and beliefs.
Morality-proper is absolutely good [no evil] for humanity.
I have raised >300 threads in the 'Ethical Theory' section in this forum to support my point re morality-proper.

Where are your two billion believers? Can't show them? Hence, your approach is simply ineffective. Do you see the defensive line of the ruling mafia over there? Ransack it, and let the remaining survivors run for their lives. There is only one way in which they will learn, which is the hard way.

[Veritas Aequitas]

You are very ignorant of your own self and own human nature but rather focus on religious beliefs which are not true of reality and human nature.

Before the French Revolution, the goal was to obliterate the Catholic Church and its class-based privileges, and the tool was atheism. As I have pointed out already, I am ok with that. It was useful to do that.

Nowadays, the goal is to obliterate the feminist ruling mafia and its interference in private family matters, and the tool is Islam.

Whether it is the 'ruling mafia' or religions they have their pros and cons relative to time and conditions only but not for the future.

I don't care. It is going to cost a hell of a lot dead bodies. But then again, dead body after dead body, the ruling mafia will painstakingly learn to stay out of private family matters.

What is worst with your religion is its holy texts are immutable with no compromise in interpretations to the current and future conditions.

That is not a bug. That is a feature.

Whatever the 'ruling mafia' they are not constituted upon any immutable doctrines and dogmas, thus can be changed and rejected [abandoned] toward the better for the future.

Yes, the ruling mafia will change, if only, because otherwise it will hurt. They will only change after licking their wounds, again and again.

I stated earlier

• In terms of rating of religion in terms of its moral competence, I would rate as the mainstream as follow;
  1. Buddhism
  2. Christianity
  3. Others
  4. Islam [evil laden] based on its doctrine is the worst.

In my take on the matter, Islam is the most useful religion for achieving the stated goal of removing the ruling mafia from private family affairs.

You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.

The Buddhists are in my impression too nebulous, while the Christians are just a bunch of simps who stand for nothing. I want action. I want a community that will actually make a stand. You have to engage the adversary in battle, break their backbone, and overrun their lines. Do you really want a Buddhist or Christian army for that purpose? Good luck with that!

Islam which is heavily evil laden is supposedly immutable, thus whatever evil as promoted will be eternal, i.e. cannot be changed for the better in the future.

Islam enforces respect. Therefore, Islam is superbly fit for purpose. The adversary will cave in or else be made cave in. The choice is theirs.

What I have advocated is a generic morality-proper [inherent in all humans] independent of all religions and all mafia-ruling organizations and beliefs.
Morality-proper is absolutely good [no evil] for humanity.
I have raised >300 threads in the 'Ethical Theory' section in this forum to support my point re morality-proper.

Where are your two billion believers? Can't show them? Hence, your approach is simply ineffective. Do you see the defensive line of the ruling mafia over there? Ransack it, and let the remaining survivors run for their lives. There is only one way in which they will learn, which is the hard way.

Your religion [relative to others] as I have shown is inherently evil and barbaric and should be weaned off in the future.

Since the past and in the present there are loads of evil.
However, at present there is an increasing trend in the reduction of evil relative to the past.

see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bette ... Our_Nature
The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined is a 2011 book by Steven Pinker, in which the author argues that violence in the world has declined both in the long run and in the short run and suggests explanations as to why this has occurred.[1] The book uses data simply documenting declining violence across time and geography. This paints a picture of massive declines in the violence of all forms, from war, to improved treatment of children.

One good example is the total elimination of legal chattel slavery.
Here, legal chattel slavery [where one can own and trade slaves] is totally banned in all sovereign nations.
This is obviously an improvement over the state of chattel slavery since >3000 years ago.

While the above move is political, it is driven by the inherent moral functions within the brain as supported by its neural correlates.

On the other hand, your religion had condoned chattel slavery and slavery in general driven by immutable doctrines that will last eternally.

I say again, all religions [the first is yours] and all evil laden ideologies and institution must go in the future [not possible now due to the present state of human psychology] while promoting natural inherent morality-proper.
We need to be patient as it will take time but humanity must expedite the manifestation of morality proper by first recognizing its existence.

2 billion, it more like 1.5 billion with many getting out of such an evil religion.
As for morality-proper, it is a function inherently present in ALL humans which is >8 billion at present.

[godelian]

By the way, so-called 'true arithmetic' is only a tiniest fraction of the Universe, itself.

But, so-called 'true arithmetic' is again nothing at all but only a minuscule fraction of the Universe, Itself, and does not necessarily explain absolutely anything about the Universe, Itself.

True arithmetic is not a part of the physical universe.

True arithmetic s its own Platonic abstract universe.

The old Pythagorean idea that I am trying to investigate is that true arithmetic is structurally similar to the physical universe.

True arithmetic consists of a strange cocktail of predictable and unpredictable facts. This is surprising because the natural numbers are otherwise entirely deterministic. There is absolutely no element of randomness in it.

The reason why true arithmetic is partially unpredictable has nothing to do with randomness. It is the consequence of the existence of other arithmetical universes that influence it. This could also be similarly the case for the physical universe.

[godelian]

Your religion [relative to others] as I have shown is inherently evil and barbaric and should be weaned off in the future.

Not before barbarizing the ruling mafia first!

I want barbaric reprisals against any ruling mafia that stick their noses into private family matters. Barbarism is not a bug in that context but a feature.

One good example is the total elimination of legal chattel slavery.

I don't give a flying fart about that!

I am only interested in solutions that will successfully attack and destroy any ruling mafia that stick their noses into private family matters.

The Russian Federation is also potentially useful in that context. I do not care who exactly attacks and destroys NATO. Seriously, the only thing I care about, is that someone finally does it.

Your views are ineffective because they are not a solution for the problem at hand. They may possibly deal with other issues but who even cares about that?

[Veritas Aequitas]

Your religion [relative to others] as I have shown is inherently evil and barbaric and should be weaned off in the future.

Not before barbarizing the ruling mafia first!

I want barbaric reprisals against any ruling mafia that stick their noses into private family matters. Barbarism is not a bug in that context but a feature.

One good example is the total elimination of legal chattel slavery.

I don't give a flying fart about that!

I am only interested in solutions that will successfully attack and destroy any ruling mafia that stick their noses into private family matters.

The Russian Federation is also potentially useful in that context. I do not care who exactly attacks and destroys NATO. Seriously, the only thing I care about, is that someone finally does it.

Your views are ineffective because they are not a solution for the problem at hand. They may possibly deal with other issues but who even cares about that?

It is true, there are problems in the world everywhere and we need patient while striving to expedite morality proper.
I have given an example of morality-proper at work, e.g. elimination of chattel slavery and it will work for other problems around the world which will take time.
Do you think it is so easy to rewire the brain of the majority instantly?

What you are proposing is driven by evil impulses which are grounded in immutable religious doctrines.

[godelian]

What you are proposing is driven by evil impulses which are grounded in immutable religious doctrines.

There is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

After 250 000 C14 years of staying out of private family matters, the ruling mafia in the West decided that they would henceforth make problems worse in private family affairs by inventing their divorce-rape system.

There is only one way to make them uninvent it. This can only be achieved by instituting a blood tax, which must be paid with dead bodies. The only problem that is left now, is to appoint an efficient tax collector.

[Sculptor]

What you are proposing is driven by evil impulses which are grounded in immutable religious doctrines.

There is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

After 250 000 C14 years of staying out of private family matters, the ruling mafia in the West decided that they would henceforth make problems worse in private family affairs by inventing their divorce-rape system.

What is their "divorce-rape system" exactly?

[godelian]

What is their "divorce-rape system" exactly?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... rce%20rape

I will never get married because I watched my dad get divorce raped. He gave my mom the houses, cars, kids, and took on all the family debt to preserve the assets for us. My mom still dragged him through a 3 year court circus and extracted more money than he had in monthly child support. My dad lived in his car, a scum motel, then the worst crime neighborhood in a shit apartment. When he couldn’t make a few support payments the cops handcuffed him and put him in jail. He was a god father and made sure to see us every day. But his life was ruined and it destroyed mine too. Even my mom says she regrets it and is even unhappier now. Yeah, so, there’s absolutely no way I’m having kids. I won’t even get married with an ironclad prenup. Divorce rape happens wayyyy to often and it’s always the man who is starting over again in his 50s. Just when his hard work should have been paying off. Now he’s totally fucked. No thanks, America.

[Sculptor]

What is their "divorce-rape system" exactly?

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define. ... rce%20rape

I will never get married because I watched my dad get divorce raped. He gave my mom the houses, cars, kids, and took on all the family debt to preserve the assets for us. My mom still dragged him through a 3 year court circus and extracted more money than he had in monthly child support. My dad lived in his car, a scum motel, then the worst crime neighborhood in a shit apartment. When he couldn’t make a few support payments the cops handcuffed him and put him in jail. He was a god father and made sure to see us every day. But his life was ruined and it destroyed mine too. Even my mom says she regrets it and is even unhappier now. Yeah, so, there’s absolutely no way I’m having kids. I won’t even get married with an ironclad prenup. Divorce rape happens wayyyy to often and it’s always the man who is starting over again in his 50s. Just when his hard work should have been paying off. Now he’s totally fucked. No thanks, America.

It's an exaggeration.
No one gets "houses" and "cars". They might get one of each.
If the woman keeps the kids then someone still has to ay their upkeep, and that rate is nevver set more than a man's salary - ever.
You should not be so easily led by social media. You might want to collect some facts.

I do agree that marriage tends to favour the woman. Protection of the children is seen as paramount.
There is a solution to that.
Don't enter into a contract with a woman on this basis. And stop delivering your sperm into the furry cup.

But you cannot expact the state to not get involved in a system of contracts that are legally binding. It was not so long ago that the state mandated the women were "owned" by men whom they were married to.

[godelian]

But you cannot expact the state to not get involved in a system of contracts that are legally binding.

That is how it works outside the West. No government involvement. That is also how it used to work in the West before the French Revolution.

There is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

The government has to stay out of it because otherwise they will keep destroying the nuclear family and therefore society itself. So, it looks like a race against time. Either the society gets destroyed and the government along with it, or the government gets destroyed first and then society may possibly survive, but not sure because a lot of the damage is irreversible.

In my opinion, it is already too late for the the West.

I like it how it works in most of SE Asia. No government involvement. No communal property. No divorce lawyers. In the Philippines, there is no divorce at all. You just go separate ways.

It was not so long ago that the state mandated the women were "owned" by men whom they were married to.

That was only the case in the West.

[Sculptor]

But you cannot expact the state to not get involved in a system of contracts that are legally binding.

That is how it works outside the West. No government involvement. That is also how it used to work in the West before the French Revolution.

No it does not. Marriages that are legally instituted involve the law wherever and when ever they were.
Before the French Revolution wives were slaves.

There is no problem in the world that the government won't make worse.

Garbage.
Without government people would be free to dump their shit in the street. Just one of millions of examples.

The government has to stay out of it because otherwise they will keep destroying the nuclear family and therefore society itself. So, it looks like a race against time. Either the society gets destroyed and the government along with it, or the government gets destroyed first and then society may possibly survive, but not sure because a lot of the damage is irreversible.

So much ignorance , so little time.
The "nuclear family" is an invention of Western culture.

In my opinion, it is already too late for the the West.

Your opinion seems to be of little value here.
Opions thrive on knowledge and some education. Else you are just talking random garbage

I like it how it works in most of SE Asia. No government involvement. No communal property. No divorce lawyers. In the Philippines, there is no divorce at all. You just go separate ways.

LOL

It was not so long ago that the state mandated the women were "owned" by men whom they were married to.

That was only the case in the West.

Fucking garbage. It was pretty much universal.
Fucking joke

[godelian]

No it does not. Marriages that are legally instituted involve the law wherever and when ever they were.

No, the Catholic Church was dealing with marriage before the French Revolution. They didn't allow divorce. So, the situation was like in the Philippines today.

Before the Church took control over marriage in Europe, it was handled by both families, just like in Africa still today. Even Christian Africans still rarely marry in church.

Without government people would be free to dump their shit in the street.

It's a private company that collects the garbage here. If the government did it, that is when things would start going wrong.

The "nuclear family" is an invention of Western culture.

It just means "both parents and children". It exists everywhere.

It was pretty much universal.

Completely wrong. Wives in Islam have their own property and are not slaves in any way. There used to be female slaves but they were not wives.

Again, I like it the way it is in SE Asia and I want to keep it that way.

Therefore, decoupling is in my opinion necessary. The global south continues together with Russia and China on our side while the West, mostly Europe and North America, form their own separate block. I think that it is time to put the iron curtain back in place.

[Sculptor]

No it does not. Marriages that are legally instituted involve the law wherever and when ever they were.

No, the Catholic Church was dealing with marriage before the French Revolution. They didn't allow divorce. So, the situation was like in the Philippines today.

That is a confused response.
How the fuck can you prevent divorce without law.

Before the Church took control over marriage in Europe, it was handled by both families, just like in Africa still today. Even Christian Africans still rarely marry in church.

African is a big place. It is not a country full of mud huts.
Have you not heard of Islam; South Africa?

Without government people would be free to dump their shit in the street.

It's a private company that collects the garbage here. If the government did it, that is when things would start going wrong.

WHere is "here"?
WHo pays them?

The "nuclear family" is an invention of Western culture.

It just means "both parents and children". It exists everywhere.

Please Google some anthropology.
I would recommend some book, but I doubt your reading age.

It was pretty much universal.

Completely wrong. Wives in Islam have their own property and are not slaves in any way. There used to be female slaves but they were not wives.

Please cite

Again, I like it the way it is in SE Asia and I want to keep it that way.

Therefore, decoupling is in my opinion necessary. The global south continues together with Russia and China on our side while the West, mostly Europe and North America, form their own separate block. I think that it is time to put the iron curtain back in place.

I assume you would prefer a Mad Max workd.
Or you could try and participate in society rather than snipe your uneducated politics from the side lines.