the quest for timeless truths....

[Peter Kropotkin]

this quest for timeless truths is basically, the point of philosophy.....
In reading Plato, timeless truths are called "eternal forms''....the mysterious
perfect circle or some other ''eternal form'' that is the basis of, or
the immortal truths that have and will last forever...
and this is certainly one way to look at truths and their nature....
timeless or eternal... but to say there is an eternal/timeless truth
is an assumption.... and let me show you how this works....

Let us say, I hold to an eternal/timeless truth... I believe in the
Christian god... Now a person involved in Islam is going to say,
I believe in a timeless truth, and that truth is Allah... and another
might say, I believe in the timeless truths of the ten commandments.....
and another person might say, I believe in the timeless truths of the
Buddha.... now we have several people saying they hold to ''timeless,
forever truths''.... but the problem becomes, can everyone hold to
timeless truths if, if they are vastly different truths? Does the idea
of a timeless truth, exists in many different people holding to
very different ''eternal truths?''

I am not sure how we can have timeless truths being very different
truths, held by very different people....because everyone has a different
idea of a that ''timeless truth''..... for example, we know that, for example,
defining the timeless truth of ''justice'', we can have many different
ideas or visions of ''justice''... the concept of ''Justice'' seems to
be different in everyone's eyes...how can a truth, a timeless truth,
be an eternal idea/form if everyone has a different understanding
of that ''eternal truth?'' If I were to ask 100 people, what does the
''eternal truth of love'', mean.... I would probably get dozens if
not more, answers..... Love is an ''eternal truth'' that means different
things to different people, and how does become an ''eternal truth''
if it can mean dozens of different things?

So, if we accept this, that means that philosophy big problem
is that it seeks out these ''timeless, eternal truths'' that don't
exists....of course then philosophy is a failure because there
cannot be a ''timeless, eternal truth'' that we can fall back to....

if we cannot find ''eternal, timeless truths'', then what becomes
of philosophy? and there we are, right here, right now....
what becomes of philosophy if we don't have ''timeless, eternal truths''
to seek out?

So, in place of huge ''timeless, eternal truths'' that philosophy
seeks out, we use philosophy differently... instead we
use philosophy to work out the values we are to lead us in
the course of our lives....in other words, philosophy
seek out values in which we can live by, as a ''way of life''...

Now I may not be able to turn a value into a ''eternal, timeless truth''
but I can live my life as if, as if, it were something more than just a word...
for me to live my life within a ''way of life'', with justice as being
the concept behind my ''way of life'', I don't have to assume justice as a
universal, timeless concept.... I can use the concept of justice, as
being ''my way of life''.... personal, not collectively....
and not as a ''eternal, timeless'' value.... just to being the value
I hold to today....but that singular holding of a value, also allows
me to hold onto other values and beliefs within my core beliefs...
I can hold onto other values, because I can use that core value,
not as an ''eternal, timeless, universal'' but as my own personal
value/belief, as a ''way of life''' which has nothing to do with
''eternal, timeless'' values.....

now there maybe ''timeless, eternal truths'' out there, but for me,
there are can only be my own personal truths/values, through which I live my life
by....

without any big ''eternal, timeless'' truths to live by, we have just smaller
personal values in which we hold as guides to our personal life... holding
to small, personal values, as a ''way of life''.. not big dramatic eternal
truths... but small personal truths....

Kropotkin

[ThinkOfOne]

To paraphrase Oliver Wendall Holmes:
Simplicity on the near side of complexity is worthless. Simplicity on the far side of complexity is priceless.

Most seem to hold simplistic views. They never develop the skills required to understand the vast majority of complex problem domains.

Then there are those who are largely hold complex views. They have developed the skills required to understand some complex problem domains. But struggle once a certain level of complexity is reached. They get mired down in the complexity and lack the skills to break through.

Only those having the skills required to distill complex problem domains down to their essence can find "eternal truths". They are few and far between.

Unfortunately, most seem to overestimate their abilities. Thinking that they have "eternal truths", when they do not. Perversely, this seems to be much more prevalent in those who largely hold simplistic views than those who largely hold complex views. They don't even understand enough to understand that they don't understand. This makes it all but impossible to reason with them. But I digress.

You seem to have failed to have taken the above into account in your analysis.

[Walker]

- Every action and inaction transmits truth just as surely as the sun shines, however, not every receiver has activated reception. Perhaps the receiver is insulated from transmissions, insulated by a stunted antenna, or perhaps the receiver lives underground surrounded by tunnel walls, or four walls, or useless boundaries (not the useful kind) that garble transmissions of truth into static.

- Eternal truth means to be ever-present. As Sri Ramana Maharshi said to Sri H.L. Poonja, of what use is a God that comes and goes?

[attofishpi]

- Eternal truth means to be ever-present. As Sri Ramana Maharshi said to Sri H.L. Poonja, of what use is a God that comes and goes?

..and one might say back to Poonja, since when should God be required to be always utiltarian?

[Peter Kropotkin]

I see people around here trying to seek out truths, but the truths
they seek are metaphysical truths... timeless truths....

but in my day-to-day life, of working, of dealing with customers,
family, paying bills, shopping.... my day-to-day life has no dealing
with metaphysical truths... there is nothing beyond or outside
of my day-to-day life..... the big metaphysical questions aren't in
our day-to-day life... although I run the self-checkout, I quite
often spend a good deal of the time running the front end...
and that is giving breaks, making sure people go to lunch on time,
answering customers questions...I have an override card which means
I can correct any mistakes a checker can make... and at no point,
is there a metaphysical aspect to my day... I lead a purely utilitarian
life and job....

but the big questions I engage with here, are also not metaphysical
questions... for I take the big questions, for example, what is
the meaning of life, as not being metaphysical... my engagement with
the big questions are practical... how should we lead our lives?
what is ethical, moral behavior? What can we know? What can/should I
believe in? all questions that stem from practical concerns, not
metaphysical concerns....a quick reminder, metaphysical means
outside of/beyond the physical....and given that I engage with
our daily life in a practical manner, I do not strive for
metaphysical/ or timeless truths.... not only do I not strive for
timeless truths, I do not believe that there are timeless/metaphysical
truths to be found.....and in fact, I think they are detrimental to our
understanding of the universe....and why? Because they take our eyes
off of our practical concerns... our day to day life...... and I can see it now,
but Kropotkin, what about those big questions that people need answers to?
and why do they need answers?

I hold that the big questions can be asked and answered without ever
getting into metaphysical matters... things outside of or beyond the physical....
to think of the profound question, what is the meaning of life?
I hold the answer lies in our lives of the day to day.....
but Kropotkin, how can we find meaning and purpose in out day to day lives?
of dealing with bosses and deadlines and promotions and office politics?

I think the answer lies in putting that crap into context... in my day to day,
there is no tomorrow, there is only the next 5 minutes.. it lies in context....
that the meaning of life, its purpose is found...and we can gain that context
of our day to day lives if we unite our philosophical understanding with that
day to day life.... in other words, we seek out philosophical context
in our day to day lives... I see that people are so involved in their
own day to day lives, that they can't see anything else... but Kropotkin,
you aren't making any sense; you praise the day to day and then you
attack it..... I think that we must inform our day to day with context....
I work to allow myself the time to engage in philosophy.... my focus in
life is not working, but in making time to philosophizes...
I got up at 5:30 this morning even though I don't work until 10:00,
so, I have time to read and write and think about what it means to
be human..... I create context in my life by making it about something
other than my day to day.... I live for philosophy, and that creates
my own context....

so, the solution, perhaps, is to create your own context in life,
and that allows us to ''overcome'' our own day to day lives.....
we suffer the day to day to allow us to find and create our
own meaning, via the context we create....and context does not
required us to have any metaphysical basis for that context..
we can find our own context without resorting to metaphysical
reasons.... but, that creation of context becomes the point of,
or the creation of meaning in our lives...

I don't live to work, I live for philosophy...and work provides me
the means to create context/philosophy.....so, if you don't live
for work, what do you live for? What creates meaning and purpose in
existence? what context do you find in life?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

now some may claim that this seeking of meaning, is itself
a metaphysical question... the question can be metaphysical,
there is nothing inherently wrong with asking metaphysical questions...
but metaphysical answers take us away from our day-to-day commitment
to seeking out answers that have context in our lives...
context that stays within the lines of the physical...
but Kropotkin, that is one fine line you give us, yep,
but that is part of the problem... that we live within
fine lines...but recall that answers are rarely ever easy,
if the answer is really easy, it was probably a dumb question...
the answers to seek out are the tough, really tough answers....
because in the questions/answers, we can discover who we are...
not metaphysically, but in the day to day lives we lead......
within the context, we create within our lives...

hence, we can now see the value of such random things,
as the Japanese Tea ceremony... or the other aspects of
Japanese ceremonies... the ceremony they give to the day to day
aspects, like the tea ceremony, give that some meaning, some context....

by staying focus on the here and now, we can give the here and now,
some focus, some context, some meaning...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

in thinking about this, perhaps, by giving my life context,
with my endeavor to make philosophy the primary meaning of life,
as the creation of context, is actually what gives my life
its meaning, its purpose... my pursuit of philosophy
gives my life meaning/purpose.. not work, not the day to day, but,
by my engagement with philosophy......

that is what counts... as least for me.... what about you?

Kropotkin

[Walker]

- Eternal truth means to be ever-present. As Sri Ramana Maharshi said to Sri H.L. Poonja, of what use is a God that comes and goes?

..and one might say back to Poonja, since when should God be required to be always utiltarian?

Since when should God be required to always be useless?

[Sculptor]

A truth is a thing that is a positive relationship between the state of affairs as it is and the description of the state of affairs.
THe degree to which those things are in agrement the more "truthful" it is.

GIven that truth requires tow things. A situation to be observable and an observer. This is a temporal requirement and so the idea that there could be such a thing as a "timeless truth" is false.

[attofishpi]

- Eternal truth means to be ever-present. As Sri Ramana Maharshi said to Sri H.L. Poonja, of what use is a God that comes and goes?

..and one might say back to Poonja, since when should God be required to be always utiltarian?

Since when should God be required to always be useless?

Nobody is saying that.

[Harbal]

by staying focus on the here and now, we can give the here and now,
some focus,

As usual, Kropotkin, your reasoning is impeccable.

[Walker]

..and one might say back to Poonja, since when should God be required to be always utiltarian?

Since when should God be required to always be useless?

Nobody is saying (asking) that.

Ergo, Walker is Nobody.

That's a strange ergo.

[Walker]

- Eternal truth means to be ever-present. As Sri Ramana Maharshi said to Sri H.L. Poonja, of what use is a God that comes and goes?

..and one might say back to Poonja, since when should God be required to be always utiltarian?

Either one, or Nobody, might also say back to Poonja, since when do you answer a question with a question? Or, one or Nobody might not answer at all. Or, one might say Poonja, you're dodging the question with a question, like attofishpi. Or one might say Poonja, you're dodging the question, come back when you have an answer. And then Poonja might say, I thought the question was rhetorical. And then Sri Ramana Maharshi might say ... everything has a purpose, and everything you do has a reason, whether or not you no it. And then Poonja might say, nobody said that. Then Sri Ramana Maharshi might say, but you heard it, didn't you.

Then Poonja might say, Oh, I get it.

[Dubious]

Since I'm not timeless and the universe isn't timeless, the only timeless truth which remains is there is no such thing as a timeless truth. The most timeless truths are generally those which in their default state negate themselves, only seeming timeless in their longevity.

[Walker]

Since I'm not timeless and the universe isn't timeless, the only timeless truth which remains is there is no such thing as a timeless truth. The most timeless truths are generally those which in their default state negate themselves, only seeming timeless in their longevity.

"All I know for sure is, I am. All else is inference."
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

That's a timeless truth that applies to everyone.