Christian Civilization -- The Central Issue

[Atla]

Fine, you've chosen a religion.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Fine, you've chosen a religion.

No, not quite. My perspectives came before I considered religion as such. All that I have really said is that there is a world of metaphysical impetus (idea, pattern, imposition) that comes through man and molds and determines his world.

And I think there are (indeed) entire ranges of mystery involved in this.

I am interested in Catholicism because it is foundational to Europe and European civilization.

However, I admit that I think moral imperatives are *real* and that at the heart of what I call metaphysical realness there is ur-intelligence.

If that is religion for you — so be it.

[Atla]

Fine, you've chosen a religion.

No, not quite. My perspectives came before I considered religion as such. All that I have really said is that there is a world of metaphysical impetus (idea, pattern, imposition) that comes through man and molds and determines his world.

And I think there are (indeed) entire ranges of mystery involved in this.

All that I've really said is that I've always elevated human thinking and myself to religious hights, mystified thinking and myself, even though we all know that there's absolutely no reason to.

[Lorikeet]

Men seek in the metaphysical an explaining for the physical.
Once, the sun was a mysterious object in the sky.
Men mystified it, converted it to a supernatural deity.....
They attempted to make sense of what was, to them, incomprehensible.

Ignorance is where metaphysics places its "power".
A power to seduce and to manipulate and to exploit human anxieties.

By converting the incomprehensible into a comprehensible word, referring to some supernatural realm, the mind is calmed, its anxieties reduced.

[Alexis Jacobi]

All that I've really said is that I've always elevated human thinking and myself to religious heights, mystified thinking and myself, even though we all know that there's absolutely no reason to.

Now you reveal, I think, what you are really on about. Any position that someone takes that does not conform to your own a priories is ridiculous and mystifying according to you. It is all self-deception according to you. There can be no other explanation.

It is a very convenient position but it is similarly reductive as many religious ideologies.

Often, and usually, the position that you seem to take has whole other sets of functions as well. Negation, ridicule, a sort of closed-mindedness, tends to lock one into a bubble or a closed-off intellectual area.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Men seek in the metaphysical an explaining for the physical.
Once, the sun was a mysterious object in the sky.
Men mystified it, converted it to a supernatural deity.....
They attempted to make sense of what was, to them, incomprehensible.

Ignorance is where metaphysics places its "power".
A power to seduce and to manipulate and to exploit human anxieties.

By converting the incomprehensible into a comprehensible word, referring to some supernatural realm, the mind is calmed, its anxieties reduced.

A reductive, simple-minded, explanatory trope. Again, super common today.

Manipulation and the exploitation of anxiety is just as real, and perhaps even more evident, in our own (perhaps) atheistic age.

And if you assert that it is *ignorance* that has caused the thought about what is metaphysical -- which does not necessarily means outside of nature if the entire manifestation is considered -- then you imply that you have a special, interpretive knowledge (noscere in Latin, gnosis in Greek as part of the words ignorance and knowledge).

But when you talk of that it will sound pretty much like your post sounds: reductive, simplistic, negating.

Ignorance: The condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

[Lorikeet]

Ha!!
Triggered much.

Simple minds attempt to "muddy the water...".....sophisticated minds simplify the complex.
All you have is psychology....to exploit...and in the process expose your own.

[Lorikeet]

Ignorance is where charlatans build their castles in the sky......in their minds.

[Alexis Jacobi]

Triggered much.

Not even slightly. Bored is a better choice of word.

Your arguments and assertions are very common. You repeat them (apparently) to see if you can stimulate fireworks. And though I cannot be sure it is so in your case that may well be a psychological attraction on your own part. Again, super common.

The “Ha” gives you away ….

[seeds]

Men seek in the metaphysical an explaining for the physical.
Once, the sun was a mysterious object in the sky.
Men mystified it, converted it to a supernatural deity.....
They attempted to make sense of what was, to them, incomprehensible.

Yet when the greatest of human minds dive deeply into the physical for an explanation of why the physical is the way it is, they are, once again, confronted with the metaphysical, as is demonstrated in the following quote from one of the founding fathers of quantum physics...

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” ― Werner Heisenberg

Clearly, you haven't gotten past the "first gulp."
_______

[Lorikeet]

Charlatans refer to the act of "bringing it all down to earth" by using the dismissive term "reductionism." Evading the necessity of offering an alternative, or a counterargument.
They want to project everything they deem to be in their interest into supernatural realms where any absurd hypothesis, founded entirely on emotions, can lay claim to truth.
It is wherefrom Abrahamism emerges, as do all forms of nihilism - both spiritual and secular.
Every delusion can claim a supernatural foundation, because it contradicts the natural.... replacing reason with emotional appeals.
By contradicting nature, they need not adhere to her limitations.
The excuse is in the term "super," alluding to what can never be proven.
The criteria shift from empirical to emotional.
Does the hypothesis have a self-referential consistency, like Tolkien's Lord of the Rings? It too can claim supernatural foundations, a.k.a., metaphysical.
Does it feel good, or provide comfort?
Then it is true.
Can it overcome the skepticism of the average dolt?
Then it is just as good as any other explanation.

Those who propose 'supernatural' explanations are burdened with defining what 'supernatural' means and must provide evidence or arguments supporting their claims. Dismissing experienced reality using emotionally triggering words will not prove anything.
Negating all rejections of their absurdities does not prove anything, other than the essence of their own motives.

[Alexis Jacobi]

By contradicting nature, they need not adhere to her limitations.

Your posts are pretty gaseous it seems to me. But if that style and content floats your boat have at it.

Man contradicts Nature at every turn. Man is the contradicting creature. And in one significant aspect what I refer to in •the metaphysical world• are man’s tools of that contradiction.

[Lorikeet]

Men seek in the metaphysical an explaining for the physical.
Once, the sun was a mysterious object in the sky.
Men mystified it, converted it to a supernatural deity.....
They attempted to make sense of what was, to them, incomprehensible.

Yet when the greatest of human minds dive deeply into the physical for an explanation of why the physical is the way it is, they are, once again, confronted with the metaphysical, as is demonstrated in the following quote from one of the founding fathers of quantum physics...

“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.” ― Werner Heisenberg

Clearly, you haven't gotten past the "first gulp."
_______

All metaphysics contradicting physis are claims attempting to make the incomprehensible comprehensible.

The first "gulp, insinuates that you are an experienced drinker....intoxication being a necessity to swallow your definition of 'god.'
The shallow always try to imply that their needs are founded on profound insights.

The mystical is always where 'your god' and 'your metaphysics' lie awaiting the next batch of needy souls to seek their comfort.
Why do you think Christianity and all three variants of Abrahamism, have lasted so long?
Even the announcement of this god's death has been premature.

It lives on, in other forms....in secular ideologies.
As long as there remain needy spirits, like yours, there will always exist the necessity for the 'god' of the Old & New Testaments, birthed in Gnosticism and Zoroastrian dualism.

When the delusional cannot justify their claims they resort to the same accusations, alluding to their own profound understandings.

[Lorikeet]

By contradicting nature, they need not adhere to her limitations.

Your posts are pretty gaseous it seems to me. But if that style and content floats your boat have at it.

Man contradicts Nature at every turn. Man is the contradicting creature. And in one significant aspect what I refer to in •the metaphysical world• are man’s tools of that contradiction.

Thanks for your permission.....a narcissistic arrogance is always part of a charlatan's MO.
Man contradicts nature in his mind.....and if he persists to apply these contradictions, to put them into practice, he faces the consequences.

Manchild....man wants to become god....because there is none, the way it has been defined by your masters.
In other words, he wants to become that which is impossible; that which would negate existence if it were possible.

The human condition is in a state of antagonism with nature.
Both benefactor and sufferer.
The Devil is also his benefactor. Prometheus.

This is what Nietzsche meant with the term 'overman': a future man who has come to terms with the paradox of being both a product and a victim of the same processes.
What Heidegger referred to as 'being in time.'
To be both a product of what is measured by time, and also temporally ephemeral.

[Alexis Jacobi]

… a narcissistic arrogance is always part of a charlatan's MO.

I could suggest — it is reasonable — that you are projecting.

Man contradicts nature in his mind.....and if he persists to apply these contradictions, to put them into practice, he faces the consequences.

It is true that the contradiction that man employs requires •mind• — that is certain
— and our life, our culture, our civilization, is all a result of contradiction.

To contradict nature is a necessity.