I am thinking about what we human beings are and
what it means to us today....
We in America, we are completely gridlock today in most
areas of our live.. politically, socially, educationally, economically....
America has a country is stuck in one place until we can sort out
this gridlock that has gripped us...
and this begins right at the start... we are problem solving beings...
a definition of what a human being is... we are problem solvers...
and yet we are faced with almost insurmountable problems..
but we can break out the problems into areas...
for example.. the right-left gridlock in America has splinter us into
divisions that never should have happened... for example, during Covid,
it was clear that wearing mask, which never should have become political,
did become political... the right says that mask should have been
voluntary/not mandatory, as dictated by the state... and yet, the right also
wants the state to dictate such laws as abortion and free speech...
these inconsistencies have created severe political problems in America....
so, first step.. try to understand, or as Socrates said, to know thyself...
what exactly are your beliefs? I suspect that most people have no idea
what beliefs they exactly hold and the implications for hold those
beliefs... holding to diverse and separate beliefs like one belief for mask
and another belief for Abortions, is part of the problem..
this is not a right/left problem but a particular American problem...
what exactly are my values and beliefs? You get idiots like IQ45 whose
values are all over the map... but they begin with bigotry and prejudice...
and that is the beginning place to examine our values... what are our
basic values? Which values do I engage with? for example, one of the values
I hold deeply is justice... which is essentially equality... for justice is treating
everyone equally... equally before the law, equally before all of us,
equally before god...the Calvin idea that some are saved, just because
and some are doomed, just because, has no place in the world today....
the word Catholic means universal... we get treated by god equally
and we treat each other universally....as equals....
those are some of my basic, primary beliefs... and what we need is everyone
to do just that.. work out what exactly are their basic, primary beliefs...
or as Luther said, ''on these grounds I stand, I can do no other''
I stand on the ground of justice/equality..
on what grounds do you stand on? what are your basic, primary beliefs?
and here is where we begin to end the gridlock in America today.....
everyone asking themselves on what grounds do they stand on?
what values are their values, the values they live for and the values
they will die for.....
so, here is step one... an understanding of the values we live by....
Kropotkin
here I stand, I can do no other
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
step two: a recognition that all problems are not the same....
not all problems need to be treated equally.. but we have
to decide, collectively, what problems are actual problems
and what problems are caused by our own biases and mindset...
for example, conservatives act as if America were some kind of third world
state... with death and terror in every street in America... but that is
just flat out wrong...their basic understanding of reality is just flat
out wrong... the fact is, that most of the world wishes they had
what we have.... our streets are very safe... but listening to the right,
there is literally warfare on every street in Ameria...and entire
cities have burned down... and entire cities are captured by those
evil blacks or Muslims or some other group that the right hates this week....
the battle today is over immigrants... that is the evil group of the week
next week I am sure it will be someone else... that is the nature of hate...
when the Nazi's came to power and were able to impact the state/society...
they began with penalizing the Jews, but moved on to communists, and
then gays and then gypsies... that is the problem with operating from hate...
there is never enough groups to hate...
but this is the problem with right wing reality...
it is skewed.... it misidentifies the problem.. how can we find
solutions to problems if the very problem is misidentified?
so, we have to come to some idea about what exactly are the problems
of America....the right has blamed education as being a problem but
I see and the left sees education as being part of the solution....
how can we release America from gridlock if we can't even collectively
identify the problems?
I hold that the right holds to their beliefs with their childhood indoctrinations
and values... they haven't had a reevaluations of values, in which they
examine every single value they hold and ask themselves, is this value,
really a value I hold, or is it part of my childhood indoctrinations?
and so, when the right sees a problem, they really see their
indoctrinations from their childhood, not the problem at hand.....
they haven't or cannot separate their indoctrinations enough to clearly
see reality for what it is..... and that is why the right wing misidentifies
the problems of America... they just can't see past their childhood
indoctrinations...which they identify as the problem, not the actual problem,
but the problems they see in their head due to their childhood indoctrinations....
Kropotkin
not all problems need to be treated equally.. but we have
to decide, collectively, what problems are actual problems
and what problems are caused by our own biases and mindset...
for example, conservatives act as if America were some kind of third world
state... with death and terror in every street in America... but that is
just flat out wrong...their basic understanding of reality is just flat
out wrong... the fact is, that most of the world wishes they had
what we have.... our streets are very safe... but listening to the right,
there is literally warfare on every street in Ameria...and entire
cities have burned down... and entire cities are captured by those
evil blacks or Muslims or some other group that the right hates this week....
the battle today is over immigrants... that is the evil group of the week
next week I am sure it will be someone else... that is the nature of hate...
when the Nazi's came to power and were able to impact the state/society...
they began with penalizing the Jews, but moved on to communists, and
then gays and then gypsies... that is the problem with operating from hate...
there is never enough groups to hate...
but this is the problem with right wing reality...
it is skewed.... it misidentifies the problem.. how can we find
solutions to problems if the very problem is misidentified?
so, we have to come to some idea about what exactly are the problems
of America....the right has blamed education as being a problem but
I see and the left sees education as being part of the solution....
how can we release America from gridlock if we can't even collectively
identify the problems?
I hold that the right holds to their beliefs with their childhood indoctrinations
and values... they haven't had a reevaluations of values, in which they
examine every single value they hold and ask themselves, is this value,
really a value I hold, or is it part of my childhood indoctrinations?
and so, when the right sees a problem, they really see their
indoctrinations from their childhood, not the problem at hand.....
they haven't or cannot separate their indoctrinations enough to clearly
see reality for what it is..... and that is why the right wing misidentifies
the problems of America... they just can't see past their childhood
indoctrinations...which they identify as the problem, not the actual problem,
but the problems they see in their head due to their childhood indoctrinations....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
now notice, that the solutions to our problems aren't out there...
but inside of us...and that is a very important aspect of problem solving...
to see not only where the problem is, but where the solution is...
and for most problems, the solution lies inside of us, not outside of us...
if we were to see reality, as it is, we could find solutions that work..
one example that has caused problems and will continue to create problems
is this question of global warming... we on the left see this as a problem,
those on the right cannot see this as a problem..
the evidence is quite clear that the world is warming up.... every single
month we have record highs in city after city after city, all over the world....
last year in Phoenix Arizona, the temperature hit 110 degrees a record
31 days in a row....my daughter lives there and she says it was brutal..
it got so bad she actually moved here for a while, just to survive.
and she will do so again this summer... and yet, conservatives cannot see
this as a problem....
imaginary violence in the streets is a problem but record heat isn't a problem...
and so, I engage with the problems as I see them, but I recognize that
those problems may just be indoctrinations in my head.. and so, I
continuously work on what is in my head and what is outside of my head....
so, I don't as conservative do, confused the two....
so, want to end the gridlock in America... discover inside of yourself,
what your views are and do they connect with the problems of Ameria
as you see them? are the problems you see, simply your childhood
indoctrinations, put into play? or are they really problems that we face?
as usual, the answer lies inside of us, not outside of us...
Kropotkin
but inside of us...and that is a very important aspect of problem solving...
to see not only where the problem is, but where the solution is...
and for most problems, the solution lies inside of us, not outside of us...
if we were to see reality, as it is, we could find solutions that work..
one example that has caused problems and will continue to create problems
is this question of global warming... we on the left see this as a problem,
those on the right cannot see this as a problem..
the evidence is quite clear that the world is warming up.... every single
month we have record highs in city after city after city, all over the world....
last year in Phoenix Arizona, the temperature hit 110 degrees a record
31 days in a row....my daughter lives there and she says it was brutal..
it got so bad she actually moved here for a while, just to survive.
and she will do so again this summer... and yet, conservatives cannot see
this as a problem....
imaginary violence in the streets is a problem but record heat isn't a problem...
and so, I engage with the problems as I see them, but I recognize that
those problems may just be indoctrinations in my head.. and so, I
continuously work on what is in my head and what is outside of my head....
so, I don't as conservative do, confused the two....
so, want to end the gridlock in America... discover inside of yourself,
what your views are and do they connect with the problems of Ameria
as you see them? are the problems you see, simply your childhood
indoctrinations, put into play? or are they really problems that we face?
as usual, the answer lies inside of us, not outside of us...
Kropotkin
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
I'll be right behind you, sitting on the fence, Kropotkin.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm
I stand on the ground of justice/equality..
on what grounds do you stand on? what are your basic, primary beliefs?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
let us approach this problem from another angle...
what if we were to approach every single problem from the exact same
spot? if problems are, as I have suggested, really just based on our
own personal experiences and understanding, then holding to the
exact same position, regardless of the nature of the problem, won't
solve any problems... let me make this clear....
we have two poster, if not more, but let us limit this to just two...
Age and Attofishi.. both start from set places... and never deviates
from their set starting places... Atto begins with god, first, last and
everywhere in between... so, every single problem has the impact
of god for atto... you cannot separate problems if god is there right
from the start...if god is built into your problems, from start to finish,
you cannot look at any problem with any sort of flexibility.. god must
be part of the solution... and that predetermines any sort of answer
you might get... a solution is only a solution if you include god into
that answer... that sets a limit to solutions, for the most part,
that prevents us from finding a real solution to the problem...
take a problem, we have, what some perceive as falling or failed morals..
and for the religious, only by including god, can we recover our morality....
but that limits us to only solutions that must include god...
no god, no solution....
we have in America today, a strong group of individuals who believe
in what is called ''Christian Nationalism''' and they are trying to take
over the government of the United States.. and should they succeed,
they will institute Christian values as the only, sole values of America...
they will, and they admit this, turn America into a Christian nation,
exactly like Iran being a Muslim nation.. with theology dictating
the laws of the land... Christian laws, which disregard any other
religion or values as being un-Christian... which means we will
return to stoning those who violate gods' laws such as adultery...
and this is exactly what those like Atto would love to have..
a nation devoted to Christian values, not secular values....
but that isn't a solution and in fact, the idea of a Christian nation
would create a crisis in America that would create a civil war that
would make the first civil war seem like a picnic...
but those who hold to god, first, last and everywhere in between,
don't see this theocracy as being a problem...they see it as a
solution to a problem.....but is our changing morality really a sign
of the apocalypse... or is it a sign of something else?
the religious certainly can't tell... they have too much god on their mind...
as it's been noted before, when all you have is a hammer, then
everything looks like a nail... and religions, with their belief in god,
being a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.. and thus turning
America into a Christian theocracy comes from only having a hammer
as a tool... and will turning America into a Christian theocracy, really
the answer? I seriously doubt it... so what is the answer?
well, first of all, we have to agree in there being a problem...
and the problem I see is not religious, but political and economic...
thus, using religion to solve a political, economic problem will
fail...... so, once again, we have to be clear, crystal clear as to
the nature of the problem and any possible solutions to that problem
Kropotkin
what if we were to approach every single problem from the exact same
spot? if problems are, as I have suggested, really just based on our
own personal experiences and understanding, then holding to the
exact same position, regardless of the nature of the problem, won't
solve any problems... let me make this clear....
we have two poster, if not more, but let us limit this to just two...
Age and Attofishi.. both start from set places... and never deviates
from their set starting places... Atto begins with god, first, last and
everywhere in between... so, every single problem has the impact
of god for atto... you cannot separate problems if god is there right
from the start...if god is built into your problems, from start to finish,
you cannot look at any problem with any sort of flexibility.. god must
be part of the solution... and that predetermines any sort of answer
you might get... a solution is only a solution if you include god into
that answer... that sets a limit to solutions, for the most part,
that prevents us from finding a real solution to the problem...
take a problem, we have, what some perceive as falling or failed morals..
and for the religious, only by including god, can we recover our morality....
but that limits us to only solutions that must include god...
no god, no solution....
we have in America today, a strong group of individuals who believe
in what is called ''Christian Nationalism''' and they are trying to take
over the government of the United States.. and should they succeed,
they will institute Christian values as the only, sole values of America...
they will, and they admit this, turn America into a Christian nation,
exactly like Iran being a Muslim nation.. with theology dictating
the laws of the land... Christian laws, which disregard any other
religion or values as being un-Christian... which means we will
return to stoning those who violate gods' laws such as adultery...
and this is exactly what those like Atto would love to have..
a nation devoted to Christian values, not secular values....
but that isn't a solution and in fact, the idea of a Christian nation
would create a crisis in America that would create a civil war that
would make the first civil war seem like a picnic...
but those who hold to god, first, last and everywhere in between,
don't see this theocracy as being a problem...they see it as a
solution to a problem.....but is our changing morality really a sign
of the apocalypse... or is it a sign of something else?
the religious certainly can't tell... they have too much god on their mind...
as it's been noted before, when all you have is a hammer, then
everything looks like a nail... and religions, with their belief in god,
being a hammer, everything else looks like a nail.. and thus turning
America into a Christian theocracy comes from only having a hammer
as a tool... and will turning America into a Christian theocracy, really
the answer? I seriously doubt it... so what is the answer?
well, first of all, we have to agree in there being a problem...
and the problem I see is not religious, but political and economic...
thus, using religion to solve a political, economic problem will
fail...... so, once again, we have to be clear, crystal clear as to
the nature of the problem and any possible solutions to that problem
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
the next problem that I see is the question that should matter to us all...
regardless of our political, social, economic and philosophical stance...
and that is the question that faces all human beings...
what is the goal? to what end, do we fight to and for?
for I believe that American's are gridlock because they have
no sense of where they are going... to what end, can we,
all of agree to? America for centuries was driven by the idea
of filling the void of the American frontier..... Thomas Jefferson,
writing around the American Revolution, thought based on how
it had taken to conquer America to that point
(recall that in the roughly 150 years since the pilgrim's had landed,
to that point, America had only conquered only about 150 miles from the
east coast of the entire continent.. thinking it out, Jefferson thought it
would take 400 plus years to conquer the entire continent..
spoiler alert.. he was wrong)
This thought of conquering the vast American wilderness dominated America
from its very beginning to roughly 1900... it was thought that the frontier,
was conquered by 1893 in America.. and therein lies one the problems with
American thinking, that we are still in thinking about the frontier as
being wide open, when in reality, it is gone...we think as if the frontier
as still there.. we still have frontier thoughts and attitude...
the vast number of westerns on TV during the 1950's and 60's,
suggest this...
and we haven't adjusted our thinking to the new reality of modern
urban life... we are city dwellers today... more people live in the cities
than in the rural countryside... and has for a very long time... we just
haven't adjusted our thinking to compensate for that... approximate date
was around 1920 that more people lived in cities than in rural America...
in fact, 4 out of every 5 Americans, roughly 80% of all Americans
lives in the cities, not in rural America...
and this misconnection between the belief that we are an old fashion,
rural country with old time values is simply wrong... our values, thoughts
and beliefs and even the goal of our state, must change and adapt to
the new reality of Americans living in cities, not in rural America....
the GOP/MAGA party still lives in an America that is still largely rural,
and agricultural... but that isn't the reality of America today...
we live in 2024, not 1894 and we should engage with that thought,
instead of the ongoing belief that we still live in 1894, as the GOP/MAGA
party does today....the solutions brought about by the GOP/MAGA party
would have worked, in 1894.. but this is not that year...
so what end, what goal is appropriate to us in 2024?
the goals, ends of our country must match the fact that
we are a modern, urbanized country in 2024...
the goals, end of the GOP/MAGA party fails to see this...
you disagree... ok, what goals are the present day GOP/MAGA
party trying to achieve, today, right now?
to restrict voting of minorities, to ban abortion, to bring back god in schools,
one GOP/MAGA candidate in North Carolina, has said, he regrets women
having the right to vote...the GOP/MAGA party is the party of
the attempt to overthrow the government on Jan 6... and IQ45 has
said, that he will pardon every single person convicted for act done
on Jan 6... thus condoning the act of trying to overthrow the government...
I can't see a single policy advocated by the GOP/MAGA party that
will benefit America.. every single policy advocated by the GOP/MAGA
party will damage every single aspect of American life...
their very goal of turning America into a Christian theocracy cannot
possible help anyone in America...
as their goal, is to turn this country back in time... and we cannot
do that... we must move forward into the future...
can you think of a single GOP/MAGA policy that moves us forward into
the future, and not into the past? I can't....
so, what goal would you advocate and why?
and does your goal advance us into a future, or is it
just another return to the past? where should we go into
the future? what goal or ends seems to be right for America, not
just the rural part, but all of us?
Kropotkin
regardless of our political, social, economic and philosophical stance...
and that is the question that faces all human beings...
what is the goal? to what end, do we fight to and for?
for I believe that American's are gridlock because they have
no sense of where they are going... to what end, can we,
all of agree to? America for centuries was driven by the idea
of filling the void of the American frontier..... Thomas Jefferson,
writing around the American Revolution, thought based on how
it had taken to conquer America to that point
(recall that in the roughly 150 years since the pilgrim's had landed,
to that point, America had only conquered only about 150 miles from the
east coast of the entire continent.. thinking it out, Jefferson thought it
would take 400 plus years to conquer the entire continent..
spoiler alert.. he was wrong)
This thought of conquering the vast American wilderness dominated America
from its very beginning to roughly 1900... it was thought that the frontier,
was conquered by 1893 in America.. and therein lies one the problems with
American thinking, that we are still in thinking about the frontier as
being wide open, when in reality, it is gone...we think as if the frontier
as still there.. we still have frontier thoughts and attitude...
the vast number of westerns on TV during the 1950's and 60's,
suggest this...
and we haven't adjusted our thinking to the new reality of modern
urban life... we are city dwellers today... more people live in the cities
than in the rural countryside... and has for a very long time... we just
haven't adjusted our thinking to compensate for that... approximate date
was around 1920 that more people lived in cities than in rural America...
in fact, 4 out of every 5 Americans, roughly 80% of all Americans
lives in the cities, not in rural America...
and this misconnection between the belief that we are an old fashion,
rural country with old time values is simply wrong... our values, thoughts
and beliefs and even the goal of our state, must change and adapt to
the new reality of Americans living in cities, not in rural America....
the GOP/MAGA party still lives in an America that is still largely rural,
and agricultural... but that isn't the reality of America today...
we live in 2024, not 1894 and we should engage with that thought,
instead of the ongoing belief that we still live in 1894, as the GOP/MAGA
party does today....the solutions brought about by the GOP/MAGA party
would have worked, in 1894.. but this is not that year...
so what end, what goal is appropriate to us in 2024?
the goals, ends of our country must match the fact that
we are a modern, urbanized country in 2024...
the goals, end of the GOP/MAGA party fails to see this...
you disagree... ok, what goals are the present day GOP/MAGA
party trying to achieve, today, right now?
to restrict voting of minorities, to ban abortion, to bring back god in schools,
one GOP/MAGA candidate in North Carolina, has said, he regrets women
having the right to vote...the GOP/MAGA party is the party of
the attempt to overthrow the government on Jan 6... and IQ45 has
said, that he will pardon every single person convicted for act done
on Jan 6... thus condoning the act of trying to overthrow the government...
I can't see a single policy advocated by the GOP/MAGA party that
will benefit America.. every single policy advocated by the GOP/MAGA
party will damage every single aspect of American life...
their very goal of turning America into a Christian theocracy cannot
possible help anyone in America...
as their goal, is to turn this country back in time... and we cannot
do that... we must move forward into the future...
can you think of a single GOP/MAGA policy that moves us forward into
the future, and not into the past? I can't....
so, what goal would you advocate and why?
and does your goal advance us into a future, or is it
just another return to the past? where should we go into
the future? what goal or ends seems to be right for America, not
just the rural part, but all of us?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
and here we return to another idea....
if we force Americans into a Christian theocracy, as Iran is
a Islamic theocracy, what happens to our free will? I don't want
to live in a Christian theocracy, if it is done against my will,
if I am forced to comply with a faith and religion against my free will...
how do we bring about peace when millions are deprived of their right
to freely choose the religion of their choice.... that is one of the many
problems of the attempt to turn American into a Christian theocracy...
I lose my free will... as will millions of Americans...
or does that not even matter to the believers of this American theocracy?
rights and values for me, not for thee... that is the radical right wing
of the Christian theocracy... I have rights and you don't... that is
the bottom line of this type of thinking..
whereas the left policy is if I have rights, you should have the exact
same rights... what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander....
everyone must have religious rights or no one should... all or nothing...
and that is the essence of justice, of equality... that rights for one, is
rights for all... if there is no equality, there is no justice...
this question of free will and what is the goal of ours, must be thought
of together.. what is the goal and who is going to obey it?
all or nothing....
so, what is the goal and how does our free will engage with this?
Kropotkin
if we force Americans into a Christian theocracy, as Iran is
a Islamic theocracy, what happens to our free will? I don't want
to live in a Christian theocracy, if it is done against my will,
if I am forced to comply with a faith and religion against my free will...
how do we bring about peace when millions are deprived of their right
to freely choose the religion of their choice.... that is one of the many
problems of the attempt to turn American into a Christian theocracy...
I lose my free will... as will millions of Americans...
or does that not even matter to the believers of this American theocracy?
rights and values for me, not for thee... that is the radical right wing
of the Christian theocracy... I have rights and you don't... that is
the bottom line of this type of thinking..
whereas the left policy is if I have rights, you should have the exact
same rights... what is good for the goose, is also good for the gander....
everyone must have religious rights or no one should... all or nothing...
and that is the essence of justice, of equality... that rights for one, is
rights for all... if there is no equality, there is no justice...
this question of free will and what is the goal of ours, must be thought
of together.. what is the goal and who is going to obey it?
all or nothing....
so, what is the goal and how does our free will engage with this?
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
one of the questions of existence is this...
the belief that there is but one true question and equally,
there is only one true answer....
The Christian holds to this viewpoint... the GOP/MAGA party holds
to this point, the radical right wing holds to this point.....
but I do not.... that there a multitude of questions, for every single
person has a question that is their defining question...
and to that question, there are a multitude of answers...if you want
to hold to the answer that, there is a god, great, rock on... but
where I must draw the line, is when you force me to bow down to
your god.... or to your religious views, as is the case in abortions,
and dealing with crime, or in the attempt to ''bring back morality''
into our public discourse... with a religion approved by you...
that is taking the one true question and forcing me to live
by your one true answer.. I am not going to live by your
one true answer... just as I don't expect you to live by my
answer, which I know in advance isn't necessarily a ''true''
only one possibility can exists for that question....
one question can have many different and diverse answers...
and many diverse answers can lead us back to one or more
questions...
what is the goal or purpose of human beings? that is one question
that can have, and does have many diverse answers...
let us say, you believe in a god, and I say there is no god...
what is the solution? to allow both of us to act as if we
are right... by giving freedom to act upon our choice...
if I prevent you from prayer, I am not allowing you freedom
and you force me to prayer, you are not allowing me freedom...
so, the answer it to make it possible that we both can act on our
answers... and that answer is by allowing both to exists and that is
only possible by allowing freedom of action and freedom of choice...
and this is true of most, most policies differences...
I say to allow abortions, you say to ban abortions... the only way
to allow freedom of beliefs is to allow abortions.. because that
allows both of our beliefs to be honored.. if you against abortions,
then don't have one...but don't take away my daughter's right to
freely act upon her values and her beliefs...
the only path forward is by granting rights, not preventing them...
by allowing acts and action that don't harm the society at large....
for allowing acts such a murder damages the state and the society
at large.. thus, we must prevent them... and we must prevent
actions that harm individuals like pedophilia... thus laws against
them are needed... we don't want total freedom of actions,
but enough freedom that it allows us the freedom to become
who we are and enjoy the same rights as others have....
and not harm the state..... by allowing homosexuality
and cross dressing and other acts/actions that may offend us
religiously, but to allow us the freedom to be who we are
and not to harm the state.... (Homosexuality and transgender
and cross dressing do not harm the state/society .. we can allow
it because it is having the same right of others.. it is mentioned
in the bible, cross dressing)
there is no one true question in ''who can we love'' and there is no
one true answer.... so, we are left with loving others who are of age
and also consent... no other barriers exist...than that....
for that is the freedom I ask for and because I have the freedom
to love another, I must give that right to others.. to love who they
choose to love...
there are many questions with many different answers...
Kropotkin
the belief that there is but one true question and equally,
there is only one true answer....
The Christian holds to this viewpoint... the GOP/MAGA party holds
to this point, the radical right wing holds to this point.....
but I do not.... that there a multitude of questions, for every single
person has a question that is their defining question...
and to that question, there are a multitude of answers...if you want
to hold to the answer that, there is a god, great, rock on... but
where I must draw the line, is when you force me to bow down to
your god.... or to your religious views, as is the case in abortions,
and dealing with crime, or in the attempt to ''bring back morality''
into our public discourse... with a religion approved by you...
that is taking the one true question and forcing me to live
by your one true answer.. I am not going to live by your
one true answer... just as I don't expect you to live by my
answer, which I know in advance isn't necessarily a ''true''
only one possibility can exists for that question....
one question can have many different and diverse answers...
and many diverse answers can lead us back to one or more
questions...
what is the goal or purpose of human beings? that is one question
that can have, and does have many diverse answers...
let us say, you believe in a god, and I say there is no god...
what is the solution? to allow both of us to act as if we
are right... by giving freedom to act upon our choice...
if I prevent you from prayer, I am not allowing you freedom
and you force me to prayer, you are not allowing me freedom...
so, the answer it to make it possible that we both can act on our
answers... and that answer is by allowing both to exists and that is
only possible by allowing freedom of action and freedom of choice...
and this is true of most, most policies differences...
I say to allow abortions, you say to ban abortions... the only way
to allow freedom of beliefs is to allow abortions.. because that
allows both of our beliefs to be honored.. if you against abortions,
then don't have one...but don't take away my daughter's right to
freely act upon her values and her beliefs...
the only path forward is by granting rights, not preventing them...
by allowing acts and action that don't harm the society at large....
for allowing acts such a murder damages the state and the society
at large.. thus, we must prevent them... and we must prevent
actions that harm individuals like pedophilia... thus laws against
them are needed... we don't want total freedom of actions,
but enough freedom that it allows us the freedom to become
who we are and enjoy the same rights as others have....
and not harm the state..... by allowing homosexuality
and cross dressing and other acts/actions that may offend us
religiously, but to allow us the freedom to be who we are
and not to harm the state.... (Homosexuality and transgender
and cross dressing do not harm the state/society .. we can allow
it because it is having the same right of others.. it is mentioned
in the bible, cross dressing)
there is no one true question in ''who can we love'' and there is no
one true answer.... so, we are left with loving others who are of age
and also consent... no other barriers exist...than that....
for that is the freedom I ask for and because I have the freedom
to love another, I must give that right to others.. to love who they
choose to love...
there are many questions with many different answers...
Kropotkin
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
'you' keep informing 'us' that you keep thinking about what you human beings are. But, 'I', for one, am yet to see 'you' ever arrive at any decision.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm I am thinking about what we human beings are and
what it means to us today....
Again, 'look at' how utterly CLOSED and narrowed some of those adult human beings had become, in what they called 'today', (when this was being written).
This only talks about 'free will' and 'human beings', but 'looks from' its only very narrowed perception of things.
Some people even spoke and/or thought that "america" or more truthfully that the so-called "united states of america" was some sort of example of what it was to be a 'human being'.
Countries are never stuck. you adult human beings, however, can become very, very stuck. Again, because of your assumptions and beliefs.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm we are completely gridlock today in most
areas of our live.. politically, socially, educationally, economically....
America has a country is stuck in one place until we can sort out
this gridlock that has gripped us...
you older human beings are also the only ones, alone, who literally cause and create absolutely every 'problem', in Life.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm and this begins right at the start... we are problem solving beings...
well considering that you are the only ones who cause or create absolutely any and every 'problem', then it would be somewhat very accurate that you are also so-called "problem solvers".Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm a definition of what a human being is... we are problem solvers...
Or, do you some of you expect something else to even solve your own problems for you, as well?
Which all are and were self-caused and self-created.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm and yet we are faced with almost insurmountable problems..
Yet, here 'you' are still doing it.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm but we can break out the problems into areas...
for example.. the right-left gridlock in America has splinter us into
divisions that never should have happened...
Well, if 'you' are, supposedly, "problem solvers", then just express what the actual 'problem' is, exactly. And then, just as obvious, go and solve it.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm for example, during Covid,
it was clear that wearing mask, which never should have become political,
did become political... the right says that mask should have been
voluntary/not mandatory, as dictated by the state... and yet, the right also
wants the state to dictate such laws as abortion and free speech...
these inconsistencies have created severe political problems in America....
How much simpler and easier can living be, and this get?
But, I suggest instead of just 'trying to', you just go out and 'do it'.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm so, first step.. try to understand, or as Socrates said, to know thyself...
Then, if you really want to 'solve problems', then this is also very, very simple and easy to do. Again, it just takes the 'know-how'. So, if you have not yet the 'know-how' of how to know 'thyself' and/or how to solve all of the 'problems', in Life, then you will either have to find someone who does already know and have the 'know-how', or, you will have to discover the 'know-how' by, and for, "yourself".
By the way, obtaining and gaining the 'know-how' for both of these things, as well as other things, was, and thus is, a Truly very simple, easy, and ever relatively very quick process. you have to have the Want and desire to, first.
Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm what exactly are your beliefs? I suspect that most people have no idea
what beliefs they exactly hold and the implications for hold those
beliefs...
Do you know what your beliefs are, exactly, "peter kropotkin"?
If yes, then will you share them with us?
If no, then why not?
How narrow and CLOSED could one get here.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm holding to diverse and separate beliefs like one belief for mask
and another belief for Abortions, is part of the problem..
this is not a right/left problem but a particular American problem...
This one talks and writes in a global philosophy forum, but talks and writes about "america" only. As though "america" or the people of "america" have some sort of importance in 'the world'.
Yet, you have shown and proved True that you cannot even do this on a philosophy forum, of all places, let alone in other parts of the world, or in that one country anyway.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm what exactly are my values and beliefs? You get idiots like IQ45 whose
values are all over the map... but they begin with bigotry and prejudice...
and that is the beginning place to examine our values... what are our
basic values?
Which values do I engage with? for example, one of the values
I hold deeply is justice... which is essentially equality... for justice is treating
everyone equally...
So, one of this one beliefs are that God exists, and treats 'us' equally.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm equally before the law, equally before all of us,
equally before god...the Calvin idea that some are saved, just because
and some are doomed, just because, has no place in the world today....
the word Catholic means universal... we get treated by god equally
and we treat each other universally....as equals....
But why do others have to do what you want, or expect, them to do?Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm those are some of my basic, primary beliefs... and what we need is everyone
to do just that.. work out what exactly are their basic, primary beliefs...
Why are they not free from 'you' wanting and expecting 'them' to do certain things?
But, what you say you do is not backed up and supported by the way you speak, and misbehave.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm or as Luther said, ''on these grounds I stand, I can do no other''
I stand on the ground of justice/equality..
But, and again, just saying you live by some value does not mean that you necessarily live by that value, at all.Peter Kropotkin wrote: ↑Wed Mar 20, 2024 4:06 pm on what grounds do you stand on? what are your basic, primary beliefs?
and here is where we begin to end the gridlock in America today.....
everyone asking themselves on what grounds do they stand on?
what values are their values, the values they live for and the values
they will die for.....
so, here is step one... an understanding of the values we live by....
Kropotkin
-
Peter Kropotkin
- Posts: 1577
- Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am
Re: here I stand, I can do no other
as I hate to respond to Age, as I believe Age is the worst thinker
on this site...I shall make this exception as it is convenient for me
right now...
I often bring up the point, the question about what is man/human beings?
and many might wonder, why, why do I bring this point up, again and again?
I believe it is the basis of where we are and where we are going...
are we Homo economicus, which is as Marx believed, the bottom
line for human beings is the economic sphere... capitalism, communism,
hunter-gatherer, socialism, mercantilism, are all examples of economic systems...
and which basically break down into two possibilities.. mixed, free market economies,
or planned economies..
that is roughly the two types of economic systems.. and answering the
question, is man an economic being, that takes us into thinking that
we exists for economic reasons..
but perhaps, we are political creatures.. homo politicus? which is
man as a political being.. and with that start, we think of human
beings in terms of politics, not economics...that is a possibility...
or perhaps we are Homo Ergaster.. which means working man...
and that is our beginning understanding of human beings...
now notice, with each ''assumption'', we start somewhere different..
and we must think of human beings in a certain way... capitalism
beginning assumption is that we are Homo Ergaster.. working beings...
combining that with homo Economus.. we see that human possibilities
are related to economic and/or working beings...
which is vastly different than what the religious believe, they believe
we are Homo Religiousus....someone whose behavior and thoughts
are motivated completely by religious ideas... that human existence
is inherently religious... which is completely different than both
the communist and capitalist viewpoint and the political viewpoint...
and how are we supposed to work out, understand these completely
different viewpoints of what a human being is?
And many may wonder, why does it even matter? it matters because
that is our starting point as to what we are and what we are supposed
to be doing... as Kant asked in his questions, ''What am I to do?"
''What am I to believe in?" "What can I know?"
the question "What am I to do?" is predicated on knowing what sort of
beings we are... as is the question of ''What am I to believe in?" that
answer depends on who we are as human beings... and as for
the question, ''What can I know?" is a question about what human beings are...
for example, if we are religious beings, then we should seek out religious questions,
and if we are working beings, that is what we need to know, and if we are
political beings, we must know political matters, not religious or economic
matters...how we define human beings is how we seek out our meaning...
our meaning is found in how we define ourselves...if we are economic
beings, that is how we find our meaning... in economic terms, as both
capitalism and communism define human beings in terms of humans,
being economic beings...not political or working beings, but
economic beings....
elsewhere, I have defined human beings as being problem solvers...
the question of Kant, ''What am I to do?" is a problem, which
needs solving... ''What can I believe in?" is a problem which
requires us to solve..
Now one may argue that there is no one universal answer as to
what is a human being? and that is fine, but that does create
other problems.... if there is no universal answer to this question,
then how are we to supposed to understand the world in terms
of there being a universal question and answer... the one true question
and the one true answer... becomes very doubtful if we have no
standards to refer back to, like Homo Ergaster or Homo Economicus...
at this point, we can't even hold to the ''one true question brings
about the one true answer''.. this becomes doubtful...
the unity of existence, the one thing that stands behind all things,
the one constant that brings us the eternal matter, becomes
something vastly different... we have no eternal object, and
so human beings have no set standards to hold on to....
this makes the search for god, problematic to say the least...
if there is no eternal object... the eternal forms as Plato might
suggest...there is no eternal standard... standards are now
set locally, individually, apart from others...
so, this question of ''what is man/human beings, is answered locally,
within ourselves... and that brings about its own problems...
there is no set, universal possibility for knowing what a
''human being'' is...we can be anything we want to be...
and if we are so individual as to be able to set our own answers
as to ''what is a human being?'' that we can no longer judge
others based on moral values... there are no set, eternal values
we can hold to... thus we cannot, cannot make moral judgements
about people being gay, or cross dressing or trans people....
we can only make such judgements if, if there is some universal
standard that we can all looked to make such a judgement....
and all this comes from our inability to work out ''what human beings are''
there is a depth in such questions, such as ''what are human beings?''
that clowns like Age are unable to see...
Kropotkin
on this site...I shall make this exception as it is convenient for me
right now...
I often bring up the point, the question about what is man/human beings?
and many might wonder, why, why do I bring this point up, again and again?
I believe it is the basis of where we are and where we are going...
are we Homo economicus, which is as Marx believed, the bottom
line for human beings is the economic sphere... capitalism, communism,
hunter-gatherer, socialism, mercantilism, are all examples of economic systems...
and which basically break down into two possibilities.. mixed, free market economies,
or planned economies..
that is roughly the two types of economic systems.. and answering the
question, is man an economic being, that takes us into thinking that
we exists for economic reasons..
but perhaps, we are political creatures.. homo politicus? which is
man as a political being.. and with that start, we think of human
beings in terms of politics, not economics...that is a possibility...
or perhaps we are Homo Ergaster.. which means working man...
and that is our beginning understanding of human beings...
now notice, with each ''assumption'', we start somewhere different..
and we must think of human beings in a certain way... capitalism
beginning assumption is that we are Homo Ergaster.. working beings...
combining that with homo Economus.. we see that human possibilities
are related to economic and/or working beings...
which is vastly different than what the religious believe, they believe
we are Homo Religiousus....someone whose behavior and thoughts
are motivated completely by religious ideas... that human existence
is inherently religious... which is completely different than both
the communist and capitalist viewpoint and the political viewpoint...
and how are we supposed to work out, understand these completely
different viewpoints of what a human being is?
And many may wonder, why does it even matter? it matters because
that is our starting point as to what we are and what we are supposed
to be doing... as Kant asked in his questions, ''What am I to do?"
''What am I to believe in?" "What can I know?"
the question "What am I to do?" is predicated on knowing what sort of
beings we are... as is the question of ''What am I to believe in?" that
answer depends on who we are as human beings... and as for
the question, ''What can I know?" is a question about what human beings are...
for example, if we are religious beings, then we should seek out religious questions,
and if we are working beings, that is what we need to know, and if we are
political beings, we must know political matters, not religious or economic
matters...how we define human beings is how we seek out our meaning...
our meaning is found in how we define ourselves...if we are economic
beings, that is how we find our meaning... in economic terms, as both
capitalism and communism define human beings in terms of humans,
being economic beings...not political or working beings, but
economic beings....
elsewhere, I have defined human beings as being problem solvers...
the question of Kant, ''What am I to do?" is a problem, which
needs solving... ''What can I believe in?" is a problem which
requires us to solve..
Now one may argue that there is no one universal answer as to
what is a human being? and that is fine, but that does create
other problems.... if there is no universal answer to this question,
then how are we to supposed to understand the world in terms
of there being a universal question and answer... the one true question
and the one true answer... becomes very doubtful if we have no
standards to refer back to, like Homo Ergaster or Homo Economicus...
at this point, we can't even hold to the ''one true question brings
about the one true answer''.. this becomes doubtful...
the unity of existence, the one thing that stands behind all things,
the one constant that brings us the eternal matter, becomes
something vastly different... we have no eternal object, and
so human beings have no set standards to hold on to....
this makes the search for god, problematic to say the least...
if there is no eternal object... the eternal forms as Plato might
suggest...there is no eternal standard... standards are now
set locally, individually, apart from others...
so, this question of ''what is man/human beings, is answered locally,
within ourselves... and that brings about its own problems...
there is no set, universal possibility for knowing what a
''human being'' is...we can be anything we want to be...
and if we are so individual as to be able to set our own answers
as to ''what is a human being?'' that we can no longer judge
others based on moral values... there are no set, eternal values
we can hold to... thus we cannot, cannot make moral judgements
about people being gay, or cross dressing or trans people....
we can only make such judgements if, if there is some universal
standard that we can all looked to make such a judgement....
and all this comes from our inability to work out ''what human beings are''
there is a depth in such questions, such as ''what are human beings?''
that clowns like Age are unable to see...
Kropotkin