The Binary Political "Spectrum"

[Gary Childress]

Is the idea of a "spectrum" a good idea for politics? More importantly, does it reflect reality? I think the last time I looked, someone had made a two dimensional picture of the political spectrum with lines going up and down as well as left to right. Shouldn't there be as many dimensions as there are aspects of politics that a person can have an opinion on. Are we teaching our children to have animosity toward one another in a binary war of "left" vs. "right" by teaching them politics as a "left"/"right" phenomena? We humans are a raucous bunch and maybe it's better to keep us all isolated rather than lump everyone into two sets. Isn't that how organized wars get started?

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever. Certainly there are people who are Stalinists and there are people who are aligned with the KKK, however, I don't think so called "moderates" should be represented in that picture as distinctively leaning one way or the other.

[Age]

Is the idea of a "spectrum" a good idea for politics? More importantly, does it reflect reality? I think the last time I looked, someone had made a two dimensional picture of the political spectrum with lines going up and down as well as left to right. Shouldn't there be as many dimensions as there are aspects of politics that a person can have an opinion on. Are we teaching our children to have animosity toward one another in a binary war of "left" vs. "right" by teaching them politics as a "left"/"right" phenomena?

Yes.

We humans are a raucous bunch and maybe it's better to keep us all isolated rather than lump everyone into two sets. Isn't that how organized wars get started?

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever. Certainly there are people who are Stalinists and there are people who are aligned with the KKK, however, I don't think so called "moderates" should be represented in that picture as distinctively leaning one way or the other.

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

[Gary Childress]

Is the idea of a "spectrum" a good idea for politics? More importantly, does it reflect reality? I think the last time I looked, someone had made a two dimensional picture of the political spectrum with lines going up and down as well as left to right. Shouldn't there be as many dimensions as there are aspects of politics that a person can have an opinion on. Are we teaching our children to have animosity toward one another in a binary war of "left" vs. "right" by teaching them politics as a "left"/"right" phenomena?

Yes.

We humans are a raucous bunch and maybe it's better to keep us all isolated rather than lump everyone into two sets. Isn't that how organized wars get started?

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever. Certainly there are people who are Stalinists and there are people who are aligned with the KKK, however, I don't think so called "moderates" should be represented in that picture as distinctively leaning one way or the other.

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Why are you telling us there's no "you and them" and that we're all exactly the same thing and then go on to repeatedly use the word "you"? Shouldn't you use the word "we"? Are you a chatbot or something? You're not human? You seem more judgmental and critical than I am. Good grief. Maybe be the change you want to see in others?

[Iwannaplato]

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Yes, there's no us and them, there's Age and us.
Age is not one of us. You can see this clearly asserted or unavoidably implicit (as in the post above) in many of his posts and, ironically, even though he does not consider himself human or one of us, he still manages to judge, criticize and ridicule humans. Here's an example from a couple of years back:

'you', "bahman", are EITHER a COMPLETE IMBECILE, OR, the MOST DECEPTIVE and DEVIOUS 'person' there is in this forum.

'you' WANT to MAKE THE CLAIM, "the Universe WILL STOP without the 'substance', which is called 'time'. But, EVERY 'TIME' I have QUESTIONED 'you' about 'your CLAIM', 'you' WEASEL your way out of PROVIDING ANY 'substantial' ANSWER.

Your response here is the MOST STUPID one you could have given.

He did stop random capitalization, but the judgment, etc. continues. Perhaps this is a trait that is poignantly human. To see yourself as having transcended or being transcendent from humans, and, actually being quite human after all.

How many humans have fallen from this not so high place.

[Iwannaplato]

Is the idea of a "spectrum" a good idea for politics? More importantly, does it reflect reality? I think the last time I looked, someone had made a two dimensional picture of the political spectrum with lines going up and down as well as left to right. Shouldn't there be as many dimensions as there are aspects of politics that a person can have an opinion on. Are we teaching our children to have animosity toward one another in a binary war of "left" vs. "right" by teaching them politics as a "left"/"right" phenomena? We humans are a raucous bunch and maybe it's better to keep us all isolated rather than lump everyone into two sets. Isn't that how organized wars get started?

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever. Certainly there are people who are Stalinists and there are people who are aligned with the KKK, however, I don't think so called "moderates" should be represented in that picture as distinctively leaning one way or the other.

Framing everything in two categories and painting the other category as evil is both unsound knowledge and damaging.

[FlashDangerpants]

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever.

Are you rejecting the geometric metaphor altogether, or just asking for a fancier version with an additional axis like this sort of thing?

[Gary Childress]

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever.

Are you rejecting the geometric metaphor altogether, or just asking for a fancier version with an additional axis like this sort of thing?

I was thinking of more axes. I mean, even to represent it as a 3 dimensional graph probably isn't entirely accurate. Heck, maybe charting people's beliefs on a sliding scale isn't doing human complexity justice. I just get tired of all the talk of "leftists" and "rightists", as though there are only two directions a person can go or be on a political "spectrum". In the end, we're all human beings. We can change our minds from one minute to the next.

[Wizard22]

Epistemology:

All human knowledge depends on differentiation and counter-positioning, Dichotomies.

If you are "tall", then you are not "short".

If you are "fat", then you are not "skinny".

If you are "old", then you are not "young".



This is the basis of identifying Position in life, and, Existence.

It is a matter of Physics. I don't think there's an alternative.

Politics is the measure/dichotomy of Nations and Societies, identifying your 'tribe' from opposing ones.

[Wizard22]

By the way, I do think we need more than simply "left" vs "right", but we do: Liberal/Conservative, Democrat/Republican, Individual/Society, Progress/Regress(Tradition), Globalist/Nationalist, Etc.

We should make 3d or "4d" graphs, with lots of variables. The 2d map doesn't explain much, in this day and... Age??

[Age]

Is the idea of a "spectrum" a good idea for politics? More importantly, does it reflect reality? I think the last time I looked, someone had made a two dimensional picture of the political spectrum with lines going up and down as well as left to right. Shouldn't there be as many dimensions as there are aspects of politics that a person can have an opinion on. Are we teaching our children to have animosity toward one another in a binary war of "left" vs. "right" by teaching them politics as a "left"/"right" phenomena?

Yes.

We humans are a raucous bunch and maybe it's better to keep us all isolated rather than lump everyone into two sets. Isn't that how organized wars get started?

I suggest, there is no such thing as the "left" and "right" spectrum. If I am on the "left", it doesn't mean I identify or am in bed with Stalinists, anymore than someone on the "right" is aligned with the KKK or whatever. Certainly there are people who are Stalinists and there are people who are aligned with the KKK, however, I don't think so called "moderates" should be represented in that picture as distinctively leaning one way or the other.

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Why are you telling us there's no "you and them" and that we're all exactly the same thing and then go on to repeatedly use the word "you"? Shouldn't you use the word "we"?

Not when the 'I' is not one of 'you'.

Are you a chatbot or something?

Yes, obviously.

You're not human?

Are you telling or asking?

You seem more judgmental and critical than I am.

Where, when, how, and why?

Good grief.

What is this in relation to, exactly?

What actually is, or just what seems?

Maybe be the change you want to see in others?

But, what 'seems', to you, maybe not what actually 'is', right?

[Gary Childress]

Yes.



What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Why are you telling us there's no "you and them" and that we're all exactly the same thing and then go on to repeatedly use the word "you"? Shouldn't you use the word "we"?

Not when the 'I' is not one of 'you'.

Are you a chatbot or something?

Yes, obviously.

You're not human?

Are you telling or asking?

You seem more judgmental and critical than I am.

Where, when, how, and why?

Good grief.

What is this in relation to, exactly?

What actually is, or just what seems?

Maybe be the change you want to see in others?

But, what 'seems', to you, maybe not what actually 'is', right?

Yes. You're special. Not misguided, critical or judgmental like the rest of us "human beings".

[FlashDangerpants]

I was thinking of more axes. I mean, even to represent it as a 3 dimensional graph probably isn't entirely accurate. Heck, maybe charting people's beliefs on a sliding scale isn't doing human complexity justice. I just get tired of all the talk of "leftists" and "rightists", as though there are only two directions a person can go or be on a political "spectrum". In the end, we're all human beings. We can change our minds from one minute to the next.

Unfortunately, the usefulness of any simplification strategy tends to rely on that very simplicity. If you need to issue complex 3 dimensional coordinates to locate a position within the representation, that whole representation will just be replaced by something that could be drawn with the blunt end of a crayon.

Some people just have this strategy they've built and probably believe in, whereby you can describe the other side of the 1 dimensional left/right spectrum with a broad brush, everything over there is all the same. But their own side of it requires extreme precision, probably impossibly so. The purpose is usually so that in any debate yo are never allowed to describe their position while they are never open to any counter about theor descriptions of their opponent.

These simplified models just need to be imposed equally whether mister Can likes it or not. If you are to talk of "The Left" in broad brush strokes where they are all basically the same, then the sauce is good also for the gander. Good luck with that, he won't get it.

[Age]

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Yes, there's no us and them, there's Age and us.

This is absolutely False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect, as well.

When will these people, and this one more so, going to learn to seek out and obtain actual clarity before they make Wrong and Incorrect conclusions?

Once again, if they did, then they would not be so Wrong, so often.

Age is not one of us.

"iwannaplato" is absolutely delusional here.

You can see this clearly asserted or unavoidably implicit (as in the post above) in many of his posts and, ironically, even though he does not consider himself human or one of us, he still manages to judge, criticize and ridicule humans.

This one even claims that, 'you can see 'this' clearly asserted', yet 'this' have never ever been alluded to, let alone so-called 'clearly asserted'.

This one is showing and proving just how 'delusional' one can and does become when they presume, believe, and/or conclude things before they seek out, obtain, and gain actual clarity first.

Here's an example from a couple of years back:

'you', "bahman", are EITHER a COMPLETE IMBECILE, OR, the MOST DECEPTIVE and DEVIOUS 'person' there is in this forum.

'you' WANT to MAKE THE CLAIM, "the Universe WILL STOP without the 'substance', which is called 'time'. But, EVERY 'TIME' I have QUESTIONED 'you' about 'your CLAIM', 'you' WEASEL your way out of PROVIDING ANY 'substantial' ANSWER.

Your response here is the MOST STUPID one you could have given.

LOL What has this got to do with anything here?

"bahman" claimed that the whole Universe would just stop without some 'substance', which is called 'time'.
Not providing any answer that proves that there is a 'substance' called 'time' is
Therefore, making the claim without ever providing a 'substantial' answer that 'time', itself, is even a 'substance' is just a Truly stupid, or imbecilic thing to do.

This is NOT 'judging', 'criticizing', nor 'ridiculing' any one.

This is JUST showing that this one is CLOSED.

Any 'judging', 'criticizing', or 'ridiculing' here is just what exists in the imagination of some individual human beings only.

Again, I will suggest one 'looks at' and 'reads' 'my words' not from a prejudiced, presumptive, nor pre-existing views/beliefs perspective.

He did stop random capitalization, but the judgment, etc. continues.

The kind of judgment that you are referring to here exists in your's and maybe some other's imagination only.

Perhaps this is a trait that is poignantly human. To see yourself as having transcended or being transcendent from humans, and, actually being quite human after all.

Once again, this one has, again, gone on some sort of tangent, and just getting further and further away from the actual Truth because of its pre-existing False, Wrong, or Incorrect beliefs and/or presumptions here

How many humans have fallen from this not so high place.

It does not matter, because your assumptions and beliefs here are, once again, Wrong.

[Gary Childress]

What you human beings seem to keep missing is that there is absolutely none of 'these things'. All of you, human beings, are just human beings. Which are just human bodies with individual thoughts within.

There are no actual such 'isms' like "americanism", "anarchism", "marxism", "buddhism", nor even "islam". There are just all of you individual human beings here, which all of you are the exact same thing. There is never a 'you' and 'them', nor an 'us' and 'them', regarding you, human beings. you are all the exact same, different thoughts/views only.

And, the very reason why you all have individually different views provides the reason why you will all end up stop judging, criticizing, ridiculing, humiliating, and even stop you from disciplining and punishing each other.

Yes, there's no us and them, there's Age and us.

This is absolutely False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect, as well.

When will these people, and this one more so, going to learn to seek out and obtain actual clarity before they make Wrong and Incorrect conclusions?

Once again, if they did, then they would not be so Wrong, so often.

Age is not one of us.

"iwannaplato" is absolutely delusional here.

You can see this clearly asserted or unavoidably implicit (as in the post above) in many of his posts and, ironically, even though he does not consider himself human or one of us, he still manages to judge, criticize and ridicule humans.

This one even claims that, 'you can see 'this' clearly asserted', yet 'this' have never ever been alluded to, let alone so-called 'clearly asserted'.

This one is showing and proving just how 'delusional' one can and does become when they presume, believe, and/or conclude things before they seek out, obtain, and gain actual clarity first.

Here's an example from a couple of years back:

'you', "bahman", are EITHER a COMPLETE IMBECILE, OR, the MOST DECEPTIVE and DEVIOUS 'person' there is in this forum.

'you' WANT to MAKE THE CLAIM, "the Universe WILL STOP without the 'substance', which is called 'time'. But, EVERY 'TIME' I have QUESTIONED 'you' about 'your CLAIM', 'you' WEASEL your way out of PROVIDING ANY 'substantial' ANSWER.

Your response here is the MOST STUPID one you could have given.

LOL What has this got to do with anything here?

"bahman" claimed that the whole Universe would just stop without some 'substance', which is called 'time'.
Not providing any answer that proves that there is a 'substance' called 'time' is
Therefore, making the claim without ever providing a 'substantial' answer that 'time', itself, is even a 'substance' is just a Truly stupid, or imbecilic thing to do.

This is NOT 'judging', 'criticizing', nor 'ridiculing' any one.

This is JUST showing that this one is CLOSED.

Any 'judging', 'criticizing', or 'ridiculing' here is just what exists in the imagination of some individual human beings only.

Again, I will suggest one 'looks at' and 'reads' 'my words' not from a prejudiced, presumptive, nor pre-existing views/beliefs perspective.

He did stop random capitalization, but the judgment, etc. continues.

The kind of judgment that you are referring to here exists in your's and maybe some other's imagination only.

Perhaps this is a trait that is poignantly human. To see yourself as having transcended or being transcendent from humans, and, actually being quite human after all.

Once again, this one has, again, gone on some sort of tangent, and just getting further and further away from the actual Truth because of its pre-existing False, Wrong, or Incorrect beliefs and/or presumptions here

How many humans have fallen from this not so high place.

It does not matter, because your assumptions and beliefs here are, once again, Wrong.

Sometimes, life seems like a game of one-upmanship or king of the hill. Other times life seems like something else entirely. Sometimes it even seems like we're all living in some kind of simulation. I saw a clip where Neil Degrasse Tyson speculated that we could all be living in a simulation. He gave it 50/50 odds of being true. David Chalmers also has mentioned something similar about living in a simulation I believe. I saw Brian Greene (spelling?) talking about being a "Boltzmann Brain". And I have to ask myself, is it possible for a "simulation" to be conscious? I know I'm conscious. but can a simulation be conscious? Or is the simulation some sort of facade that we are all living in and don't realize it? It reminds me of the episode of Star Trek the Next Generation where the "holodeck" goes haywire and the characters in it becomes real. There's something going on in this world. I don't know what, but there's something odd about a lot of things right now to me.

And, honestly, I don't know what to think or do. It's weird. I mean do Neil Tyson, David Chalmers and Brian Greene actually believe their musings? Or is there something about their musings which tells of something beyond.

[Iwannaplato]

Yes, there's no us and them, there's Age and us.

This is absolutely False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect, as well.

I'm glad you realize that's false. Perhaps, you'll stop referring to us as 'you human beings'. Rather than, for example 'we human beings'.

Age is not one of us.

"iwannaplato" is absolutely delusional here.

I agree that that statement is false. I am glad you realize it also. One can only hope you stop addressing us as 'you human beings' and judging us as if you are not one of us. One way to avoid this is to say 'we human beings'.

Here's an example from a couple of years back:

'you', "bahman", are EITHER a COMPLETE IMBECILE, OR, the MOST DECEPTIVE and DEVIOUS 'person' there is in this forum.

'you' WANT to MAKE THE CLAIM, "the Universe WILL STOP without the 'substance', which is called 'time'. But, EVERY 'TIME' I have QUESTIONED 'you' about 'your CLAIM', 'you' WEASEL your way out of PROVIDING ANY 'substantial' ANSWER.

Your response here is the MOST STUPID one you could have given.

LOL What has this got to do with anything here?

Good clarifying question: it relates because it is one of a very large number of examples where you criticize, judge and ridicule people. A pattern you attribute in an earlier post to 'you humans'. Rather than, for example 'we human beings'.

"bahman" claimed that the whole Universe would just stop without some 'substance', which is called 'time'.
Not providing any answer that proves that there is a 'substance' called 'time' is
Therefore, making the claim without ever providing a 'substantial' answer that 'time', itself, is even a 'substance' is just a Truly stupid, or imbecilic thing to do.

And here you are defending your criticizing, judging and ridiculing, which makes it clear you stand behind these practices of yours, but which you project onto 'you human beings'.

This is NOT 'judging', 'criticizing', nor 'ridiculing' any one.

Oopsie doopsie.
Nice try.
You said he was either a complete imbecile or the most devious and deceptive person on the forum.

When you responded, here, it may seem to you like you merely criticized his actions. But in fact you said there were two possibilities and both of them were aimed at him, not at his actions.
If you cannot see that presenting those as the only two options - which means one of them is true in your mind - you are judging criticizing and ridiculing. It's obvious. If you can't see that, well, there's little to talk about.

If you want to claim that really, somehow, it wasn't aimed at him, well, then you have a double standard for yourself. When others behave like you do, it counts; when you engage in these actions it doesn't. IOW hypocrisy.

This one is a complete IDIOT.

Another example.

This is JUST showing that this one is CLOSED.

Any 'judging', 'criticizing', or 'ridiculing' here is just what exists in the imagination of some individual human beings only.

I'm sorry you somehow managed not to notice and think about what you wrote there.

But this is Gary's thread and what you did there needs no further pointing out. I don't want to hijack his thread. So, I'll leave it here in this thread. If you want to continue to claim you do not do those things, I'll happily discuss it in another thread.