free will via a different context...

[attofishpi]

The OP sums up the pointless futility in bothering to read atheist "philosophers" since the ism that is atheism is wrong and they (atheists) certainly have little to no wisdom to offer.

[Peter Kropotkin]

The OP sums up the pointless futility in bothering to read atheist "philosophers" since the ism that is atheism is wrong and they (atheists) certainly have little to no wisdom to offer.

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

[attofishpi]

The OP sums up the pointless futility in bothering to read atheist "philosophers" since the ism that is atheism is wrong and they (atheists) certainly have little to no wisdom to offer.

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

[Harbal]

Kropotkin: this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Harbal: No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.


K: and I feel sorry for you..

Thank you.

[Peter Kropotkin]

The OP sums up the pointless futility in bothering to read atheist "philosophers" since the ism that is atheism is wrong and they (atheists) certainly have little to no wisdom to offer.

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Kropotkin: this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Harbal: No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.


K: and I feel sorry for you..

Thank you.

K: and still missing the point.. don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

as or as Nietzsche said...

" it is not enough to have the courage of our convictions,
but courage enough for an attack upon our convictions'''

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to be incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

[attofishpi]

K: and does religion/god offer us any free will? nope, none at all....
make your argument over the thesis statement which is free will...
not atheism....

Kropotkin

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

Talk about a bunch of 'non sequiturz'

I have experienced HELL (via the wrath of God) and I have experienced HEAVEN.

While in HELL there is no satan - I called out for the twat. God is both sides of the coin. The sage that occasionally talks to me from the aether is clearly in HEAVEN (on Earth) Christ that went to his death to give us some faith in there being more to the reality than ya know "pushing a rock up a hill" for it to roll back down when we die - as per your OP - is likely to be friends with the sages.

I did not require a reward\punishment consideration for my initial belief in God - I just had an epiphany around the age of 7 when someone in the playground said there is no God, after all the kids went back to class I stared out at the vast expanse of the sports field and the trees in the distance and realised there was far more to reality than meet the eye - it was profound - years later when learning about atoms and subatomic reality it's as if I realised at that point at the age of 7 the fact that there are building blocks to reality and its plausible that there is an intelligence behind it.

Now, I no longer believe as since 1997 God has made itself aware to me such that I KNOW it exists, that there is indeed an intelligence to the construct of our reality. I believe God instilled the faith when I was 7 through my consciousness such that I had that epiphany. I know also that there is great reason it hides evidence and insists on everyone having faith such that we should act morally with the back thought that there COULD be a God that does punish.

BTW. Cite evidence from the Bible of your statement "to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan..."

[Age]

so, the question has been asked, if we reside in an absurd universe,
where or how do we find meaning and/or purpose in our existence?

and your response is?

Kropotkin

Human beings do not reside in an absurd Universe. Adult human beings, however, create an 'absurd world', an 'absurd life', or an 'absurd way of living'.

As for how 'you find meaning', it is you who actually create meaning by just the way you define the words you use. For example, if you want to the 'meaning of life', for example, then you just look in a dictionary for a, or just go to one of your already obtained and gained, definitions of the 'life' word, and then if you continue to use that definition for that word, then you have found and have 'the meaning of' that word. Which, in this case, is 'the meaning of life'.

Which, by the way, the meaning of life is just, living; being alive.

you can find and/or use your own personal meaning however. Until then the meaning of life being living; being alive fits in with and works for absolutely everyone.

Now as for where and how you human beings find meaning, and purpose, in your existence is found, or uncovered, and discovered when you also come to understand who and what you, and human beings, are exactly and how human beings, you, the Mind, and the brain actually work.

When these are fully understand, and thus known, then what the purpose of human beings existence was for and is for is also understood, and known. But the purpose of human beings existence is, essentially, to learn, and teach. But not necessarily so in that order.

[Harbal]

Kropotkin: this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Harbal: No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.


K: and I feel sorry for you..

Thank you.

don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

Oh no, Kropotkin, I know my limitations.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Of course we have free will. God would not have bothered issuing Commandments if other_wise.

K: I guess that I will have to provide a bit of a deeper argument that you
seem to incapable of...

that we have free will based on religion.....because the bottom line
is not, not about the ten commandments... but about the binary
choice made... belief in god or go to hell....
that is the only choice made in Christainty.....
there is no other choice available ...

to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan...

and tell me, is there another choice I am missing? of course not...
the bottom line is heaven or hell... pick and spend eternity there...

Now I ask, what if, what if we took away both the punishment
and the promise... the punishment of hell and the promise
of heaven, what if we took those away... and we have no promise
and no punishment....would you still believe? I don't think so....
and that is why Christianity is a false choice.. remove the punishment
and the promise and there is no reason on earth to believe in god....
both Christianity and Islam would lose their reason for being if we
removed the promise and the punishments...

Would you believe in a god even if there were no punishment,
no promise? would the major religions even exist without the promise
or the threat? as Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all exists because
of the promise or the threat....convert and see heaven or reject
and see hell.... is there a third choice? nope....
so, religions only survive because of either the promise
or the threat.... and not because of anything that they might have to offer
us in terms of morals or value or peace? nah, just a promise or a punishment...

Kropotkin

Talk about a bunch of 'non sequiturz'

I have experienced HELL (via the wrath of God) and I have experienced HEAVEN.

While in HELL there is no satan - I called out for the twat. God is both sides of the coin. The sage that occasionally talks to me from the aether is clearly in HEAVEN (on Earth) Christ that went to his death to give us some faith in there being more to the reality than ya know "pushing a rock up a hill" for it to roll back down when we die - as per your OP - is likely to be friends with the sages.

I did not require a reward\punishment consideration for my initial belief in God - I just had an epiphany around the age of 7 when someone in the playground said there is no God, after all the kids went back to class I stared out at the vast expanse of the sports field and the trees in the distance and realised there was far more to reality than meet the eye - it was profound - years later when learning about atoms and subatomic reality it's as if I realised at that point at the age of 7 the fact that there are building blocks to reality and its plausible that there is an intelligence behind it.

Now, I no longer believe as since 1997 God has made itself aware to me such that I KNOW it exists, that there is indeed an intelligence to the construct of our reality. I believe God instilled the faith when I was 7 through my consciousness such that I had that epiphany. I know also that there is great reason it hides evidence and insists on everyone having faith such that we should act morally with the back thought that there COULD be a God that does punish.

BTW. Cite evidence from the Bible of your statement "to believe is to go to heaven, to sit at the right hand of god,
not to believe is to go to hell, to spend eternity suffering at
the hands of Satan..."

K: let me tell you a story of my youth...

I was living in Florida at the time.. I was around 10 or 11, perhaps...
and I was in school one day, when someone, a boy I think, announced
that he believed in god...the class itself even clapped for the kid...
(apparently, Florida hasn't changed much in 50 plus years)
anyway, I stood up and said, there was no god.. I don't know why..
and I certainly didn't have any reason for or against, it just seemed
intuitively wrong that there was a god.. the teacher immediately
sent the class on recess and I was given a fairly good beating on
the school grounds with the teacher watching but refusing to interfere,
cause us heathens needed to be taught a lesson... right?

anyway, a few years later, I was living in California.. about age 16 or 17, or so...
and the problem came up again, not in the form of a schoolyard beating,
but in a book... I was pretty sure the book was wrong, about how
people/races were created by both climate and geology, geography,
but I didn't have the knowledge to prove this book wrong.. and so,
that book, the name escapes me, it was 50 years ago...
I began my search into history and biology and science and eventually
philosophy... which leads me into today...

I am equally certain that god doesn't exist.. and I too have
been equally punished and have equally experienced heaven..
but not as you did, supernaturally, with no evidence of any kind,
but my punishment and pleasure was by nature and human beings...

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position? a vision you had years ago when you were a child...apparently
under the influence of certain drugs, you too can feel and even touch
god... I hold that is just as valid as your vision is too...
but if god can be created, with the use of drugs, that creates
hallucinations, then how much belief can we give this god of yours?
perhaps you were just a child with an active imagination? I've known
those children too... your faith is based on visions and hope...
I don't hold onto hope or faith.. they are very bad judge of
character...

as for me, I can hold my head high with the knowledge that
there isn't any type of evidence or fact that can support your
position....I don't need any evidence or facts... I can simply
look around me and see the trees and grass and the stars
moving in the heavens and I don't need a hypothesis of god
to make that work...Darwin makes just as much more sense of
existence then god does and Darwin takes a whole lot less
faith to believe in... you are just taking everything on faith..
and I know, know that faith is a fickle bitch... that can turn
on you any moment... been there, done that.....

so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Thank you.

don't feel sorry... engage in the values
you believe in or don't believe in... instead of just going with the ''flow''
how about trying philosophy...

Oh no, Kropotkin, I know my limitations.

K: I have a basic philosophy in which I reach for something that is
unreachable... I don't try to get something easy or on the lower branch..
I aim for the stars, for heaven as it were.... my hero is Icarus...
to fly so close to the sun that I am burned.. I have no problem with
that... my problem is that anyone, anyone can play it safe and easy,
we have taken the wrong lesson from Icarus... to do anything great or
bold, we have to take the risk of flying too close to the sun.. and I would
rather burn flying too close the sun, then be safe and cautious by risking a little
or nothing at all...more than once, I have tossed the diced and so far,
anyway, I have won.... a couple of the dice tosses were life and death calls,
so, I have risked and won... one day, I will lose and so what?
it's not like I am going to live forever, right?


Kropotkin

[attofishpi]

I am as equally certain that there is no god, as you are equally convinced
that there is a god...

Kropotkin, if you were equally certain then you would KNOW without a shadow of a DO_U_BT that God does not exist.

I have a far better argument for my position than
you do for yours... and why? because where is the evidence for your
position? a vision you had years ago when you were a child..

I've provided very clear beyond a reasonable doubt evidence that there must be an intelligence behind the construct to REAL_IT_Y.
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=41324
Here:- viewtopic.php?t=33214

So, please do provide your evidence that the is NO God.

so, please take the heaven and god on faith...
I have something firmer, reality....

REAL_IT_Y is not something firm Kropotkin, it can easily be manipulated by God.

[Age]

and so we have but two choices before us...

(but Kropotkin, you are always being binary, why not three or even
four choices? this limitation is not due to me, but to the human
imagination... we can only see the choices as being of two possibilities...
we can even fathom there being a third or even fourth choice...
two is the limit of the human mind... we are, at heart, binary
beings... until we are not.. and then the world will dramatically
change)

These human beings even admit how much they are limited, but instead of doing something about it they try to justify their choice of limiting things to being something that they have no choice over.

So, the contradictions and hypocrisy continues.

the two binary choices before us is, one the conception of the
utopia.. where we can find our answers in some utopia of some sort...
be it Marxist or religious, or political, or philosophically...
that, somehow, we become the worker state of Marxism...
and that is the end of history... or we think politically...
that of the modern American conservative who thinks by establishing
IQ45 as our modern-day utopia, a modern-day Hitler, that we can find
our own utopia.... or we can think scientifically, that only by finding
the right technique, we can find utopia..

or, or we all can be Sisyphus... one big happy family...
pushing our rocks to the top of the hill that never happens...
in hopes that one of us, just one, escapes the never ending hill
and rewrites our past, present and future...
most likely as a utopia... imagine that......

Or, there is the 'other way', which actually works, is wanted, and which everyone would enjoy doing voluntary anyway.

'This way' is also self-rewarding as it provides full satisfaction and fulfillment that comes by doing and accomplishing 'this world' all by "our" own "selves" as One.

for me anyway, after years of factory lite work, of being a grocery
clerk that forever moves the produce and cans past the scanner...
the myth of Sisyphus is an apt description of my last 17 plus years of
working in retail....and your life!.. is it closer to being Sisyphus or
is it closer to being a utopia? Given the modern world tendencies...
we are the children of Sisyphus... all of us... and doomed to pushing
that rock up the hill, or are we? how do we escape that myth of
Sisyphus that so serves as an image of our modern age....

Kropotkin

[Age]

The OP sums up the pointless futility in bothering to read atheist "philosophers" since the ism that is atheism is wrong and they (atheists) certainly have little to no wisdom to offer.

But, just saying, 'God exists', without ever showing and proving how, exactly, it could be said and argued is just as equally having little to no wisdom to offer, as well.