free will via a different context...

[Peter Kropotkin]

long ago, in my misspent youth, I was very engaged in
Albert Camus.. I read most of his stuff..

Today I return to it as another opportunity to engage with free will...

One of the most famous aspects of Camus was his declaration of
the only real question we have in life, is that of suicide... but it
is important, for us as well, to understand why Camus would make such
a statement...that our life, such as it is, is an absurd life... no matter
what the ism's of our society keeps telling us, we exist in an absurdist
world...a world that cannot be redeemed by the various ism's like
Capitalism or communism or Catholicism...In Camus world,
there is no god... and his this, he was following Nietzsche...
(much of what Camus wrote, he wrote in response to Nietzsche)

Camus's point came with an understanding that we cannot find meaning or
purpose in our world...and if we cannot find meaning, purpose, what then?
In an absurdist universe, without meaning, what is the point of existence?
thus, we return to the original point, is our only free response to this
absurd universe, the act of suicide?

In all the possible and actual myths of the universe, the one
that I think covers the totality of human experience is the myth
of Sisyphus.. and given the nature of this myth, what do questions
like morality, meaning, values, and free will, actually mean?

we spend our lives pushing rocks up the hill, to only end in death,
with the rock now rolling back to the ground and picked up by
a new generation... and for all existence, for all people, we spend
our human existence simply pushing rocks uphill, only to have
them roll back downhill at our death...and so on and so forth,
till the end of time...

now one of the ''targets'' of Camus was hope... that all those ism's and
ideologies are attempts to creating hope in our lives, that we can be
''saved'' ''redeemed'' from our endless drudgery of rolling those rocks uphill,
by a value like justice or some principle like god...

but the real question is something else... can we be strong enough to
accept life without sugar coating it by having pleasant fantasies like
there being a god that somehow redeems us even if, even if we are spending
our days, pushing rocks uphill, only to have them roll downhill again...

perhaps the real reason we have such a hard time finding meaning and
purpose in life is the fact that there is no meaning or purpose in life.....
we just spend our days rolling rocks uphill.. and they roll down..
the end.... and where do we find meaning and purpose in this relentless,
ongoing futile activity?

we can, sort of, modernize this thought with this...

we can see in our lives, the role/place that randomness
and chaos is involved in our lives... that we really can't plan
out our path, our future, our own ending because at every stage
we have randomness and chance upending our lives...
I got to where I am today, not by my own devices, but
by the random nature of the universe...I hurt my back
and to surgery and didn't work for two years.. the only job
that would even look at me, was at my current place of work,
a big box retail/grocery store...hurting my back was a random
event that changed the course of my life... and we, all of us,
have had our lives changed by random and chance events, people,
places that we never even thought about, profoundly changed
our lives, sometime for the better and sometimes, not...
that there has been some wondering about how much, a percentage
of our lives is planned/organized and what percentage isn't due
to chance/randomness? I have heard some scientists say that our lives
are 80% planned, 20% randomness.. and others have said it is almost
50% to 50% organized vs randomness... how much specifically,
may not matter much, but the idea that our lives are profoundly
changed by random acts is why our lives are really just lives
of rolling rocks uphill only to be upended by random/chance events...
we could actually push those rocks all the way up the hill, but
randomness prevents us from making it....perhaps....

and we return to our original point, how much of this is actually
an engagement with free will? do we even have a choice in
our perpetual pushing rocks uphill? do we have a choice? have free will?
and in our isms and ideologies, we have hope that our pushing those
rocks uphill have some meaning, some value that we just can't see because
we are downhill and behind that rock?

I suspect that our modern world, of factories and factory lite, that I work in,
are really just us pushing rocks uphill until the day we can escape, retire...
and the next generation begins pushing those rocks uphill till the day they
can escape....and where is free will in all this pushing rocks uphill?
what free will do I have in a system that thinks that pushing rocks
uphill forever is perfectly excellent system.....

what escape do I have in our modern world of capitalism and Catholicism?
and escape being our use of free will? Is that even possible?

Kropotkin

[Harbal]

Camus's point came with an understanding that we cannot find meaning or
purpose in our world...and if we cannot find meaning, purpose, what then?
In an absurdist universe, without meaning, what is the point of existence?
thus, we return to the original point, is our only free response to this
absurd universe, the act of suicide?

That only makes sense if you find meaning and purpose in being dead.

[Peter Kropotkin]

so, the question has been asked, if we reside in an absurd universe,
where or how do we find meaning and/or purpose in our existence?

and your response is?

Kropotkin

[Harbal]

so, the question has been asked, if we reside in an absurd universe,
where or how do we find meaning and/or purpose in our existence?

and your response is?

It's only the absurdity that makes life worth living. What would life be without the entertainment of watching people being serious about things?

[Peter Kropotkin]

it certainly is one possible response, but it feels like a
rather superficial response...with no depth in thinking about
the possible consequences of living in an absurd universe...
a kinda, the world is beneath me... response...
now I am sure some/many will agree with you,
that in itself suggest a rather shallow approach to
our thinking, our philosophy... one would hope for
something a bit, shall we say, deeper? more ''philosophical"
but as I said, many will agree with you....
and leave it at that.... instead of digging deeper....


Kropotkin

[Harbal]

it certainly is one possible response, but it feels like a rather superficial response...

Yes, I like to think so.

the world is beneath me... response...

That's a fair comment.

[Peter Kropotkin]

and so we have but two choices before us...

(but Kropotkin, you are always being binary, why not three or even
four choices? this limitation is not due to me, but to the human
imagination... we can only see the choices as being of two possibilities...
we can even fathom there being a third or even fourth choice...
two is the limit of the human mind... we are, at heart, binary
beings... until we are not.. and then the world will dramatically
change)

the two binary choices before us is, one the conception of the
utopia.. where we can find our answers in some utopia of some sort...
be it Marxist or religious, or political, or philosophically...
that, somehow, we become the worker state of Marxism...
and that is the end of history... or we think politically...
that of the modern American conservative who thinks by establishing
IQ45 as our modern-day utopia, a modern-day Hitler, that we can find
our own utopia.... or we can think scientifically, that only by finding
the right technique, we can find utopia..

or, or we all can be Sisyphus... one big happy family...
pushing our rocks to the top of the hill that never happens...
in hopes that one of us, just one, escapes the never ending hill
and rewrites our past, present and future...
most likely as a utopia... imagine that......

for me anyway, after years of factory lite work, of being a grocery
clerk that forever moves the produce and cans past the scanner...
the myth of Sisyphus is an apt description of my last 17 plus years of
working in retail....and your life!.. is it closer to being Sisyphus or
is it closer to being a utopia? Given the modern world tendencies...
we are the children of Sisyphus... all of us... and doomed to pushing
that rock up the hill, or are we? how do we escape that myth of
Sisyphus that so serves as an image of our modern age....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

it certainly is one possible response, but it feels like a rather superficial response...

Yes, I like to think so.

the world is beneath me... response...

That's a fair comment.

K: and we see the response of the modern man... oh well, let me return
to my servitude of working all my life and get my modest reward of TV
and music that allows me to pretend that I am free...
nothing to see here... move along, move along...
the powers to be love you and your attitude..
what me worry? or even think about what this existence
even means? Nah, that is for losers like Kropotkin..

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and given our modern world, with its modern industrial-military complex
the all-intrusive corporation that has its fingers in everything...
don't think of Facebook as a leader in knowing what you want before
you know what you want.. think of Facebook as the best known
opposition to freedom... they are vast entities devoted to
keeping you, me, all of us, in captivity.. and as far away from
freedom as we possibly be...

think of the modern world as the place where we lost our freedoms
and have become drones in the world...as our only role is the
creation of wealth for those who run the world.. we have no value
otherwise... this dehumanization/devaluation of human beings is
nihilism.. and that is the modern world catchphrase... work because
it is only through making you work your entire life can you be a valuable
citizen...all hail the worker... for they are the lifeblood of the nation's
wealth.. and the ones duly in chains forever... a modern day tale of
Sisyphus...working for the corporation all your life and then being discarded
when you no longer can do the work.. which means, once you can no
longer create profits...and you get your retirement watch and a few years
later, death... an appropriate fate for those who have been devalued
for a lifetime of work...

and I ask, why aren't you angry about being devalued, having
lower value than profits/money? Because you have been bribed with
trinkets that mean nothing... wealth, power, fame, material possessions,
and titles....trinkets that you have been fooled into thinking that
have some value... no, not at all....they have no value.. you just
haven't figured out yet... and what does this have to do with free will?

for we have been sold a bill of goods into thinking that by playing the game,
we can have something called success.. we have no free will to escape
playing our roles of workers and producers and consumers...
that is all that is required of us.. to be consumers, producers
and workers.... nothing more is asked of us... just obey the
system and get your sad pathetic reward of having a few years
of old age where you can't afford to do anything but wait for death...
congrats.. now die already and let me replace you with another...
for that is the modern day story... we are all replaceable by another...
because we have no free will to become anything other than
a worker bee... and do our part for 40 years until we become
expendable and then we are sent off to die..

and can I escape this fate? can I escape being a worker bee for 40
years and then shoved into a piss poor retirement that
can only last for a few years because one has just enough money
to live for, maybe 10 years.. maybe?

and where is your free will while we are forced into a retirement that
we can't afford? no one cares... you have created your profits for big brother
and now you have no other value... bye....and where is free will in
this?

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

and what of the other ism's? are we free in them?

take nationalism for example.... are we free to act within nationalism?
not that I can tell... as long we act in the best interest of the nation,
and that is decided by the government which is owned by big business...
and exactly how much freedom are we allowed in terms of nationalism?
very, very little.. or as it has been said:

''Deutschland, Deutschland uber alles''

is turned into ''America, America before all'' and all that means is
''Profits, Profits before all''....

give us your entire life to create wealth for big business and we will
give you a very few years of retirement.. and that is simply done
with your money, not their money... god forbid they turn over the
money to you.. even if you did spend a lifetime making it....

Kropotkin

[Harbal]

it certainly is one possible response, but it feels like a rather superficial response...

Yes, I like to think so.

the world is beneath me... response...

That's a fair comment.

K: and we see the response of the modern man... oh well, let me return
to my servitude of working all my life and get my modest reward of TV
and music that allows me to pretend that I am free...
nothing to see here... move along, move along...
the powers to be love you and your attitude..
what me worry? or even think about what this existence
even means? Nah, that is for losers like Kropotkin..

What an amusing attitude you have to life, Kropotkin.

[Peter Kropotkin]

and how do we know that even in retirement is a scam
to take your money?

in filing for Social Security and Medicare, one quickly
discovers that it is a scam to benefit insurance companies...
they pretend that you have some choice, some freedom
once you get to old age, but you don't... for example,
take Medicare, if you don't file for supplemental insurance,
you get punished financially... and are supplemental insurance
that is provided by Medicare, cheap? hell no... and they spread it
out over several different files... you have different categories
like part A, and part B, and then C to F... and each separate
one costs money... for example, Part B. is roughly, $180 a month
and that doesn't cover medicine, that is another supplemental
insurance that itself cost roughly $200 a month... and that doesn't cover
long term health care cost which is around $300 a month.. in other words,
if you want health care as a senior, it going to cost a whole lot of money...
which then becomes a question of choice, heath care or food? a choice
millions make every month... and one that forced my mom into
getting charities and government grants just to afford to eat...
if we are paying close to $500 a month for health care and only
get $1500 a month in Social Security, then we have a large chunk
of our monthly income going to health care...but you know,
what about a place to stay or other expenses?

given those choices, they are basically choices meant to
prevent one from living a long life... die already and be rid of you..
is what the society/state is saying to you.. when all it offers us is
more stealing of what little money we have in the form of
taxes on Social Security, as most states do...and in supplemental
insurances that only benefit insurance companies...
and what if we were to suggest that the state pays for any supplemental
insurance? what kinda of communist are you? where you put lives ahead
of insurance companies making more money? or the society actually paying
for the health care of its seniors? the taxpayer's money always come first,
before the health and welfare of its citizens... you know, money before
lives... for that is the choice offered... if you put lives before money,
you are a communist, a traitor, a socialist, Un-American.. money must
always come before people... that is the American way....

and what of those who shout about being ''pro-life?"
that only counts when it has nothing to do with money...
the bible was quite clear in putting money before god and
before the welfare of others... I just can't remember the exact book
that was in?

being ''pro-life'' means you actually put life before money, before the state,
even before god... if life is actually your faith, your belief, then you
must actually put life before money.. if you don't, you are not pro-life...

the choices we make, define who we are and the choices we make,
tell us if we are actually moral people, or if we just pretend to be moral
people.....like most Christians... if they say, we have to defend ourselves,
that is not pro-life.. and is they say, we can't afford it, they are not
pro-life... if we have free will and we choose money before life,
we are not moral people... our choices define who we are....

Kropotkin

[Peter Kropotkin]

Yes, I like to think so.

That's a fair comment.

K: and we see the response of the modern man... oh well, let me return
to my servitude of working all my life and get my modest reward of TV
and music that allows me to pretend that I am free...
nothing to see here... move along, move along...
the powers to be love you and your attitude..
what me worry? or even think about what this existence
even means? Nah, that is for losers like Kropotkin..

What an amusing attitude you have to life, Kropotkin.

K: yes, it's much better to be amusing than to actually think about what it
means to be human or better to be amusing than to wonder what we get
out of this life? what, think about the point or meaning of life? I would
rather watch some sit-come and be entertained, then actually think....

this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Kropotkin

[Harbal]

K: and we see the response of the modern man... oh well, let me return
to my servitude of working all my life and get my modest reward of TV
and music that allows me to pretend that I am free...
nothing to see here... move along, move along...
the powers to be love you and your attitude..
what me worry? or even think about what this existence
even means? Nah, that is for losers like Kropotkin..

What an amusing attitude you have to life, Kropotkin.

K: yes, it's much better to be amusing than to actually think about what it
means to be human or better to be amusing than to wonder what we get
out of this life? what, think about the point or meaning of life? I would
rather watch some sit-come and be entertained, then actually think....

this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.

[Peter Kropotkin]

Kropotkin: this world is clearly build for you.. not for me...

Harbal: No, Kropotkin, I have adapted to the world; it wasn't the other way round.


K: and I feel sorry for you.. to adapt is to just give up... as you clearly have...
the day I give up is my last day on earth...

Kropotkin