Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Age wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 6:31 am
Harbal wrote: ↑Mon Feb 19, 2024 11:30 pm
Well, as you suggest, He isn't backward in telling the rest of us we are deluded,
Were the ones telling "themselves" and believing that the sun revolves the earth, deluding "themselves?
It makes sense to assume that the Sun orbits the Earth, unless you know, and understand why, that is not the case.
To me, and from what I have found and uncovered, it makes no sense to assume absolutely anything is true while clarification and/or proof has not yet been obtained and gathered. And, this is just because, as I have been continually pointing out and showing here, while one is assuming something to be true, they are not fully open to finding out and seeing what the actual Truth really is, exactly.
you aware human beings are able to just view things and have views of things without having to assume absolutely any thing at all, right?
Now, of course, you are absolutely free to assume and/or believe absolutely anything you like, but there is no necessity to do either. It also makes less sense to do either when one does not yet even know, for sure, what the actual Truth really is, exactly. Again, well to me anyway.
And, what became very clearly seen and became very obvious, those people were deluding "themselves", because they were assuming or believing something of which they had not yet obtained and gathered any actual proof for at all. If they were not presuming something was true, then they all would have much quicker, much easier, and much simpler just 'listened' to 'the alternative' and learned, seen, and understood that what was being assumed to be true was actually false and wrong. Saving, literally, years and years and years of bickering, turmoil, despair, and other completely and utterly unnecessary things.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
But, if yes, then were they deluding "themselves" even more obviously so when one human being who was trying to just inform, or tell, them that actually the sun does not revolve around the earth and that it is the earth that is revolving around the sun that is actually what is irrefutably True?
For every Copernicus, there are countless crackpots telling us all sorts of crazy stuff,
1. So what, is one meant to just 'ignore' another just because they might just be a so-called "crackpot"?
2. No one knows, for sure, if another is a so-called "crackpot", or not, until the other has been challenged and/or questioned, fully.
3. If one never listens, fully, to another, then one will never know, for sure, if the other is a so-called "crackpot" or not.
4. For the one who was just explaining that actually it is the earth, which is revolving around the sun, and not the other way, that one was considered just another so-called "crackpot", of the perceived countless other ones.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
so it would be foolish to believe every alternative theory we are presented with.
It is like I never get heard. I am the one who says it is foolish to believe absolutely anything. So, obviously, I would be the very last one here in this forum who would think, suggest, say, or claim to believe any theory at all, let alone every alternative theory that you are presented with. And, this is without even mentioning that I do not even do 'theory' here. In fact, and once again, I do not even do 'debate'.
I wonder when, and if, these ones here will ever start to Truly 'listen' to me.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
We intuitively believe that we are all separate minds, because that is how it seems, but if that is a false belief, it needs to be convincingly demonstrated why that is the case
1. you do not 'intuitively believe' that you are all so-called "separate minds". you have all been 'taught' to believe such a thing. Just like all of you adult human beings are 'teaching' children to believe that you are all so-called "separate minds'. Also, this definition of 'mind' is different from the one you started out using.
2. you are absolutely free to have and/or hold to any of the many False beliefs you adult human beings have, and hold onto.
3. While one is believing something is true it is impossible to 'convincingly demonstrate', to one, what is contrary to that belief.
4. you adult human beings may well believe things to be true, just because that is how it seems to you, (which has been blatantly obvious anyway). But, this has been my very point, which I show and prove in clarifying question form; 'Why do you choose to believes things to be true, which may well be false anyway?' What is the actual point of doing this?' Is there any point in choosing to do this?
5. It is absolutely no one's job nor role, in Life, to come up with ways to 'convincingly demonstrate' to others with false beliefs nor presumptions, of what is actually true. If you people want to choose to have or hold onto beliefs, or presumptions, which are false, wrong, inaccurate, and/or incorrect in any way at all, then that their prerogative. Only when you or they WANT to come-to-learn and see the actual irrefutable Truth, then, and only then, will you or they decide to. Just because one finds out the actual and irrefutable Truth of things, then are under absolutely no obligation at all in Life to express nor show the Truth, nor under any time limit also.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
'before everyone can be expected to change their "mind".
Once again, this is irrefutable proof of one not WANTING to 'listen' to something other than its own pre-existing beliefs or presumptions. Although you double quoted the 'mind' word, implying that you are aware about what is being claimed here, it is the use of the 'change their' that is showing and proving you do not want to let go of your presumption nor belief that you human beings have your own individual minds.
Also, and by the way, I absolutely do not expect anyone of you posters here to change the views you have nor to even change 'the way' you view, look at and see, things here.
In fact, the more you posters stay stubborn with, and hold on strongly to, your 'current' beliefs and assumptions, then the better and quicker things could well work out here, for me.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
After all, things are often actually what they seem to be.
Well this is obviously absolutely relative to the observer.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Age wrote:Harbal wrote:Age just doesn't see things like most people, and he seems incapable of realising that what makes perfect sense to him will never make sense to the rest of us.
Saying and claiming 'this' is like the ones who believe that the sun revolves around the earth, and always will, saying and claiming that the one who is saying and claiming the opposite seems incapable of realizing that what makes perfect sense to 'that one' will never ever make sense to the rest of 'us'.
Your mind seems to work differently to the average mind, and your way of explaining what is going through it doesn't always make sense to the "normal" mind.
Except there is no different 'minds'. There are, however, different 'thoughts' within every human body.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
That's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is. I know I am assuming the many minds model here, but I can't think of a way round it.
The reason you, supposedly, cannot think a way round a 'many minds' model is just because, and once again, you are presuming, or believing, that there are 'many minds' is what is true and right, right? And, once more, you are doing this before you have even obtained and gathered any actual proof for this.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
If the actual irrefutable Truth of things never made sense to a group of human beings before they 'died' or 'passed on', then so be it. However, it was 'the one' who was always telling the Truth of things, and not the rest who 'died' never coming-to-know the actual Truth. And all because they were just too stubborn to just 'let go' of a tightly held onto belief, which they never even had any proof for anyway. Which makes the whole thing even more ridiculous and absurd.
On the other hand, there is the possibility that you are wrong.
The ones who were believing or presuming that the sun revolved around the earth could have been continually saying also, 'There is the possibility that you are wrong', to the one who was saying the opposite.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Look, I know what I have alluded to here and claimed is true here may never make sense to some of you human beings, especially to you older human beings, in the days when this is being written, who will 'die' never knowing.
Yes, I am getting on a bit, so time is running out for me. You need to get a move on, while I'm still here.
But it is not up to me to enliven curiosity nor interest within you again, like you once really had.
If you have no curiosity nor interest in seeing and learning if there is actually some newer or more information and knowledge here, then this is perfectly fine with me.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Human beings came-to-learn and know 'things' that the human beings, in the days when this was being written, could not have even imagined and that were completely contrary to what they were, once, believing was actually true.
It wouldn't make sense to just automatically change our beliefs every time someone presented us with a contrary belief.
Which is why I continually suggest not to have any beliefs in the first place.
But if you want to keep believing things, and even ones you know you have no actual proof for, then this is absolutely perfectly fine with me.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
There needs to be a compelling reason for us to do that.
If this is so, and considering how the belief-system affects one's ability in learning, seeing, and understanding, then there is no wonder at all now why some people take so much longer to learn, see, and understand newer and/or further knowledge when it comes along.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
I am not being offensive nor judging any of you you adult human beings for burning other human beings who have been labeled as 'witches' any more nor any less than I judge you adult human beings who abuse children, nor who believe the earth is flat, the earth is at the very center of the Universe, nor even those who still believe that the Universe began and/or is expanding. Even those of you adult human beings who believe that there are 'many minds', that human beings could never live in peace and harmony together, nor even that the actual and irrefutable truths of things can never be known. I look at all of you equally, and I am just pointing out and showing what you adult human beings do and think, at certain times and periods throughout human history, all while you are all believing that what you are doing and/or thinking are perfectly normal or 'justifiable' things to believe and think are true.
As long as you give the impression of setting yourself apart from the rest of us human beings, you will be placing a barrier between yourself and those you are trying to communicate with.
Yes, this is very obvious and was also very well known and understood before I ever used the words, 'you human beings' here, in this forum.
Again, I write in a way to find out and see what could possibly spark curiosity and interest back into adult human beings. And, obviously those three words do not. Whereas, if absolutely anyone else was to write just those three little words, the first thought that would arise when I read those words would be, 'Why is this one writing this way?' And, when I responded to that one I would write and ask, 'Why are you writing those words, who and/or what are 'you', exactly, in relation to 'us', human beings?' Or, something similar.
See, to 'me' those words, among other words, 'spark curiosity and interest'. Whereas, to you adult human being posters here, words seem to just 'spark' assumptions or beliefs, and in regards to agreement or disagreement and resistance, instead.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Why do you keep doing that when it is so obviously undermining what you are trying to achieve?
Once again, it looks like your presumption of what I am trying to achieve here is not yet fully known, Correct, nor Right.
But, what do you presume or believe I am trying achieve here, which by just expressing the actual and irrefutable Truth of things, which only comes about after learning and knowing what the proper and Correct answer to the question, 'Who am 'I'?' comes to be known, which you think or believe is so, obviously, undermining it?
Life is evolving. Life did not stop evolving when human beings came into Existence. Therefore, Life keeps moving on and past the human being stage, or level, in Life.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
Age wrote:Harbal wrote:I know he can be very frustrating, but I believe him to be genuine and honest. He's just wired up differently.
Although it may well appear that I am so-called 'wired up differently'. The Fact is that I am, so-called, wired up' in the exact same way. I just learned 'another way' to just 'look at' things differently, from 'the way' that you adult human beings have 'grown up' to 'look at', and thus 'see', things.
But that isn't really true, is it?
Yes, that is exactly True.
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
For example: many of the informal terms of speech that many of us use, and are mutually understood, seem to be a mystery to you.
you have got to be joking here. Unless, of course, you have been presuming and/or believing things to be true, before you even sought out and obtained and gained actual proof of.
Will you express here any of these so-called 'informal terms of speech that many or you use', but which, to you, seem to be a mystery to 'me'?
if no, then why not?
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
And when you do look at things in your own, "different" way, and I have managed to work out how you are looking at them, I have sometimes not been able to find a sensible reason for why you have chosen that particular point of view.
If you think or believe that you have managed to work out how I am looking at things, then how, to you, have I been looking at things, exactly?
Harbal wrote: ↑Tue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm
These kinds of things are a sign, to me, that we are "wired" differently.
If you say so.
But, where is this 'wiring', exactly?
Maybe, and just maybe, things are not actually what you seem to think or believe they are, exactly?