Philosophy Now Forum

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

Impenitent wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:16 am or the beginning is the end and the cycle of expansion becomes the cycle of collapse...

to say nothing of the black holes absorbing super-novas...

or potholes destroying pintos...

-Imp

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:36 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

Perhaps your above argument is the old version.
The modern versions of the God arguments is that God is the uncaused cause, immaterial, timeless, eternal and is omnipotent to create the universe, spacetime, humans, nature, etc.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:36 am https://youtu.be/vybNvc6mxMo?t=358
The counter argument against God is to show that the uncaused-cause is an impossibility to be real.

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:07 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:36 am

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

Perhaps your above argument is the old version.
The modern versions of the God arguments is that God is the uncaused cause, immaterial, timeless, eternal and is omnipotent to create the universe, spacetime, humans, nature, etc.

Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created. The words immaterial, timeless, and eternal are incoherent at best ambiguous.

In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.
Spacetime diagrams are useful in visualizing and understanding relativistic effects such as how different observers perceive where and when events occur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:34 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:07 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:36 am
Perhaps your above argument is the old version.
The modern versions of the God arguments is that God is the uncaused cause, immaterial, timeless, eternal and is omnipotent to create the universe, spacetime, humans, nature, etc.

Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created. The words immaterial, timeless, and eternal are incoherent at best ambiguous.

That is why I stated that your "Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created" is outdated.

In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.
Spacetime diagrams are useful in visualizing and understanding relativistic effects such as how different observers perceive where and when events occur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Physics is sustained and conditioned by the scientific method which is human-based.
As such, spacetime is human-based and not otherwise, i.e. not of or from an absolute Mind or God.

There is no way to mention 'spacetime' other than as conditioned to Physics, i.e. the science-physics mode, paradigm, framework and system.

There is spacetime because science-physics said so, not because someone's father, mother, friends and anyone outside the science-physics community [biology, social sciences] said so.

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:12 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:34 am

bahman wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 12:07 pm
Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created. The words immaterial, timeless, and eternal are incoherent at best ambiguous.

That is why I stated that your "Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created" is outdated.

In physics, spacetime is any mathematical model that fuses the three dimensions of space and the one dimension of time into a single four-dimensional continuum.
Spacetime diagrams are useful in visualizing and understanding relativistic effects such as how different observers perceive where and when events occur.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime

Physics is sustained and conditioned by the scientific method which is human-based.
As such, spacetime is human-based and not otherwise, i.e. not of or from an absolute Mind or God.

There is no way to mention 'spacetime' other than as conditioned to Physics, i.e. the science-physics mode, paradigm, framework and system.

There is spacetime because science-physics said so, not because someone's father, mother, friends and anyone outside the science-physics community [biology, social sciences] said so.

Well, I can certainly argue that time cannot begin to exist. Spacetime however a part of a manifold so they come together.

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:33 am

bahman wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 6:12 pm

Veritas Aequitas wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 3:34 am
That is why I stated that your "Spacetime as I argued is fundamental so it cannot be created" is outdated.



Physics is sustained and conditioned by the scientific method which is human-based.
As such, spacetime is human-based and not otherwise, i.e. not of or from an absolute Mind or God.

There is no way to mention 'spacetime' other than as conditioned to Physics, i.e. the science-physics mode, paradigm, framework and system.

There is spacetime because science-physics said so, not because someone's father, mother, friends and anyone outside the science-physics community [biology, social sciences] said so.

Well, I can certainly argue that time cannot begin to exist. Spacetime however a part of a manifold so they come together.

You missed my point?

I stated spacetime [space and time individually] are 'man-made' within Physics [collective-of-subjects].
As such spacetime cannot be fundamental without any relation to humans [subjects].

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm Ok, to start I have to show that spacetime is fundamental, it cannot begin to exist. To prove this think of spacetime coming into existence. This means that there was a point before that spacetime didn't exist. But that means that you need another spacetime to allow spacetime to come into existence. Why? Because of before in the previous statement. This leads to infinite regress unless you accept that there is a spacetime that didn't come into existence. Therefore, spacetime is fundamental and cannot begin to exist.

Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after. They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime. That means they were created. This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:48 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm Ok, to start I have to show that spacetime is fundamental, it cannot begin to exist. To prove this think of spacetime coming into existence. This means that there was a point before that spacetime didn't exist. But that means that you need another spacetime to allow spacetime to come into existence. Why? Because of before in the previous statement. This leads to infinite regress unless you accept that there is a spacetime that didn't come into existence. Therefore, spacetime is fundamental and cannot begin to exist.

Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after. They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime. That means they were created. This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

There is no co-incidence.
Space time exists, and from what you say cannot be created. So theres no need for a creator.
God is consistent with an invention of the human mind.

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:51 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:48 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 7:36 pm Ok, to start I have to show that spacetime is fundamental, it cannot begin to exist. To prove this think of spacetime coming into existence. This means that there was a point before that spacetime didn't exist. But that means that you need another spacetime to allow spacetime to come into existence. Why? Because of before in the previous statement. This leads to infinite regress unless you accept that there is a spacetime that didn't come into existence. Therefore, spacetime is fundamental and cannot begin to exist.

Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after. They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime. That means they were created. This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!

There is no co-incidence.
Space time exists, and from what you say cannot be created. So theres no need for a creator.
God is consistent with an invention of the human mind.

You need to read the second part of the argument carefully: "Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after. They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime. That means they were created. This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!"

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 4:31 pm

bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:51 pm

Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 1:48 pm

There is no co-incidence.
Space time exists, and from what you say cannot be created. So theres no need for a creator.
God is consistent with an invention of the human mind.

You need to read the second part of the argument carefully: "Now, what is the great coincidence? God or the stuff that made the universe cannot exist before the beginning of spacetime so they could only exist at the beginning of spacetime or after. They come into existence if they didn't exist at the beginning of spacetime. That means they were created. This leads to infinite regress unless we accept that they exist exactly at the beginning of time. And that is the great coincidence!"

THe reason I said what I said, is that I cannot see why you make mention of god at all.

Advocate wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 5:30 pm The universe never began. Space-time is just a way of describing change at a nonspecific level.