seeds wrote: ↑Fri Jan 12, 2024 1:35 am
bahman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:39 pm
Nothingness cannot occupy space. In your picture it does.
You told me that you read the OP of my
"Burning Bush" thread, in which case, you already know my stance regarding the ontology of the universe.
However, coming at this from the perspective of hardcore materialism, this image we've been discussing...
...is a visual representation of a bubble of reality that, at this present moment (and based on pre-James Webb telescope discoveries), is estimated to be approximately 93 billion light-years in diameter.
We're talking about a 93 billion light-year in diameter bubble of reality that, approximately 13.8 billion years ago, was allegedly (and literally) smaller than the tiny dot between these two brackets
[.].
What can be clearly seen here is just how often, and how much, these ones, back then, missed.
The 'whole', literally, means ALL and/or Everything, and not just a part of, or some things, as you are only showing and talking about here.
Also, the only one you are fooling and deceiving here with your continual use of the 'reality' word "seeds" is you, "yourself".
Furthermore, why only talk about a very small, narrowed, and limited 'diameter' of the whole?
If you look at the thread title here it talks about 'the whole' and not an imagined fraction, of 'the whole'.
Now, of course, the human being created 'little bubble' of 'the whole Reality', is bounded and limited. But 'it' is and was only being bounded and limited by your very small, very limited, and very bounded ability to look at, and see, things for how and what they really are.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
And the point is that the
blackened area of the above image, along with the
blackened area in the following gif that depicts the moment when the infinitesimal singularity
[.] began expanding,...
Which is all only a part of a limited and bounded figment of an imagination, of a preconceived bounded and limited universe.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
...are both visual representations of whatever it is that is
forever making room (relenting/giving-way/opening up, etc.) for the ever-expanding bubble of the universe.
you seem to keep forgetting that it only a visual representation of only what you are 'currently' obviously believing is true.
Which, as we all already know here, may well be absolutely False, Wrong, Inaccurate, and Incorrect. But which you seem to keep forgetting here "seeds".
The way you try to argue is like absolutely anyone could draw and/or provide 'an image' here, and then say that 'this' is what 'reality' is.
Which, as can be clearly seen, would be taking 'the absurd' to its absolute extreme.
Now, you are absolutely free to think, presume, or believe that your own made up illustration, image, and depiction here is the absolute truth, but, I will suggest, that if you want absolutely anyone else to agree with and accept this claim of yours here, then you start providing the actual proof for having and holding such, what appears to me Truly illogical and nonsensical belief.
Are you at all able to provide just absolutely any thing, which could back up and support your presumption or belief here?
if yes, then will you provide it?
If no, then why not?
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
And seeing how the proponents of hardcore materialism allege that time, space, and matter didn't even exist prior to the initial expansion of the infinitesimal singularity
[.],...
Here we can see how these people, back then, just could not let go of their currently held beliefs.
See, this one believes, so much, that the Universe began, that it cannot help "itself" from using words like, 'the initial expansion'. As though it has already been proven that there was some sort of 'initial expansion' of Everything.
This way of, nuanced, speaking could been seen and heard, consistently, throughout the speeches and writings, back in the days when this was being written.
So-called "scientists" who believed that the Universe began would also continually say and use expressions like, 'In the early stages of the Universe's expansion', but when questioned and/or challenged they would say things like, 'We do not know if the Universe began. This is still open for discussion'.
But what the actually Truth is/was could be clearly seen within their words. They, literally, believed that the Universe began, and/or is expanding.
Exactly like these ones here known as "seeds" and "will bouwman" do.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
...then what else other than
"absolute nothingness" could those blackened areas be called?
Call them, or that one, whatever you like "seeds". It is your own illustration and depiction, only.
It is obviously not an Accurate, Correct, nor even close to being a True depiction of the True Reality of all-there-is.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
Btw, don't get hung up on the details of those rudimentary images. Instead, use your imagination to peer-out into the farthest reaches of the actual universe, to what, logically, must be a light barrier, and try to picture what the ever-expanding light barrier (the metaphorical
"film" of the bubble) is expanding into.
See how this one cannot get past its own made up current belief.
There is no 'bubble' inside of something else here.
There is no 'expansion' of one thing into another thing.
The Universe/the whole is ALL-THERE-IS. So, what this essentially and fundamentally means if there is, for example, areas of what is called 'absolute nothingness', then these areas, and what they are composed of are part of the whole/Universe.
Again, the Universe/the whole is infinite and eternal, and if this could be refuted, then it has not, yet.
seeds wrote: ↑Thu Jan 11, 2024 9:29 pm
Indeed, if not into an infinite and
"boundless" nothingness that could never be filled to capacity no matter how many universes come into existence,...
...then what else could it be?
_______
Now, this one is doing what a seemingly, lot of adults started doing, in the days when this was being written, that is; start talking about many or some so-called 'other universes', in order to try to back up and support their belief that the Universe, Itself, began, and/or is expanding.
Which, again, is just another prime example of how these people, back then, would say just about anything, in the hope that it would somehow back up and support their 'currently' held onto beliefs and presumptions.