Sex and gender

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I suppose we all change as we get older; you didn't used to be quite so bad tempered all the time.

I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the same.

No, you have definitely upped your game.

Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?

[vegetariantaxidermy]

I used to go out of my way to offend people a lot more, "back then", so although you think I've deteriorated in one respect, perhaps I have progressed in another. It does seem odd, though, that I was more likeable when I was more offensive.

Actually you were just funny before. Now you are not. As you've got woker you've got less likeable and more offensive. Funny that.

I'm probably less "woke" than you are; I certainly don't get enraged by as many things as you seem to, and I've never been one to have an all or nothing view of things; very few issues have only one clear-cut side to them. Maybe I would be funnier if I put as much effort into it as you put into being grumpy.

Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.

[Harbal]

But by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?

Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.

Saying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.

And it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.

Saying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.

And it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.

Seems to me you are the one having a 'temper tantrum'. Patronising prik.

[Harbal]

I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the same.

No, you have definitely upped your game.

Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?

Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.

Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.

[Harbal]

Saying you are a christian and saying you are a woman when you are a man are rather different. It's not my job to indulge and validate narcissistic male fetishists in their fantasies. People can claim they are cows if they want to. Or sheep. Or pigs. They might change their minds though when they are being trucked off to the abattoir.
One minute you are saying men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports and spaces, the next you are saying that men's delusions (which aren't even genuine delusions) should be indulged and validated out of 'kindness' and to ease their 'suffering'. Make up your fucking mind.

And it's not my job to justify anything to you, especially when you are determined to misunderstand and misrepresent everything I say. Neither is it my job to indulge your temper tantrums.

Seems to me you are the one having a 'temper tantrum'. Patronising prik.

I wondered what you would end up calling me.

[vegetariantaxidermy]

No, you have definitely upped your game.

Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?

Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.

Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.

'Involved' in what? I can't stand either of you. You really don't have to repsond to me. It's not going to go well for you if you keep this up.
Do you have any counterarguments to my points on this topic or not? If not then there's really nothing more to discuss.

[Immanuel Can]

I agree with you, apart from the delusion part.

But by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?

Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.

I'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian...I am, by all the definitions of what that is. You are not delusional when you think of yourself as a curmudgeonly male; you are what you think you are, no doubt.

But if I think I'm a cat, I'm delusional. Or if I think I'm a woman -- or at least pretend to think I am -- then I'm delusional, and possibly trying to enforce my delusional thinking on you, as well.

The difference between a delusion and a truth is its relationship to that thing we call "reality."

[Harbal]

Smarmy isn't funny. What you mean is I used to be nicer to you. You've just admitted that you have consciously changed and are trying to be 'nicer'. Well that's worked out well hasn't it? Now you have the clay-headed sourpuss hypocrite as a bestie. Weird that he doesn't berate you for saying that men shouldn't be in women's sports and spaces. And with that in mind, what implications do you think there will be when men can legally call themselves women, therefore, for all intents and purposes, they are women? How does one stop women from entering women's sports and spaces?

Your friend sculptor is a lot grumpier and nastier than I am. I wonder why you never say that to him? What a mystery. He also doesn't get nasty to you when you are actually taking the same position as I am. That's odd too I don't go around telling people on here to kill themselves when they disagree with me. And yeah, every argument does have two sides. A right one and a wrong one. Do you see any counterarguments to anything I've written on this topic? I don't. Perhaps you could link me to them.

Whatever is going on between you and Sculptor is nothing to do with me, and I'm not interested in getting involved in it.

'Involved' in what? I can't stand either of you. You really don't have to repsond to me. It's not going to go well for you if you keep this up.

Oh dear. IC has already promised me hell, I wonder what you have up your sleeve. Actually, I didn't respond to you; it was you who butted into a conversation I was having with IC. Just saying.

Do you have any counterarguments to my points on this topic or not? If not then there's really nothing more to discuss.

No, I don't have any counter arguments, and I agree we have nothing to discuss.

[Harbal]

But by definition, if you or I genuinely believes we're a horse or a cow, then we are suffering a delusion. Why then would we balk at pointing out when, say, the greatest male decathlete suddenly asks us to believe he's the world's newest woman? Isn't it equally obvious that that is either some sort of delusion? What else would you call it?

Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.

I'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian..

Well that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.

You are not delusional when you think of yourself as a curmudgeonly male;

Well it appears I was deluding myself about that until I was well and truly outcurmudgeoned on this very thread.

But if I think I'm a cat, I'm delusional. Or if I think I'm a woman -- or at least pretend to think I am -- then I'm delusional, and possibly trying to enforce my delusional thinking on you, as well.

I think I already agreed with you about that, and I haven't said otherwise.

The difference between a delusion and a truth is its relationship to that thing we call "reality."

Yes, we covered delusional beliefs with Christianity.

[Immanuel Can]

Yes, a man thinking he is a woman would be deluded, but if he has a concept of gender and he feels he conforms to a certain state within that concept, then he is merely categorising himself in the same way that we all categorise ourselves. You are doing the very same thing when you identify yourself as a Christian and think about what that entails. If that can be called delusional, then we all go through life suffering no end of delusions.

I'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian.

Well that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.

Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.

Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist. And I think the same is true of Atheists, but don't say that they can't be Atheists if they're determined to be one.

But this is quite a different situation than the "sex-gender" thing, in which there is no reality in even the claim, and it's not even remotely possible for a man to "be" a woman. The question then becomes, "Is Harbal morally obligated to join that deluded person in his delusion, or is it just fine if Harbal says, 'No, man...you're a dude'?"

[Harbal]

I'm not delusional when I think I'm a Christian.

Well that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.

Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.

If it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?

Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist.

But what does he mean when he says he's a Marxist? He might be so impressed with Marx's beard that he aspires to grow one equally magnificent, and considers himself a follower of Marx on that basis alone. Shall we call him deluded, or just stupid?

But this is quite a different situation than the "sex-gender" thing, in which there is no reality in even the claim,

You think there was such a person as Christ, who was the son of God, and some other bloke thinks there are such things as genders, and believes a particular one of them belongs to him, or he belongs to it; what's the principle difference?

and it's not even remotely possible for a man to "be" a woman.

You seem very reluctant to accept my agreement on that.

The question then becomes, "Is Harbal morally obligated to join that deluded person in his delusion, or is it just fine if Harbal says, 'No, man...you're a dude'?"

No, I am under no obligation, but if he were to tell me that he felt his gender was female, I would say, fair enough, but why are you telling me? If he were to tell me he was a woman, I would probably leave him to his delusion, and only say, "'No, man...you're a dude", if he expected me to go to bed with him.

[Immanuel Can]

Well that's the nature of delusion, isn't it? The sufferer believes he is experiencing something connected to reality.

Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.

If it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?

Well, you and I can argue over whether Christianity is a "construct" (an invention of men) or a divine ordinance; I'll say the latter, and probably you, the former. But it entirely misses the point.

Let me make it succintly: sex is not "constructed." It's what you have when you come to exist, in the first place. There's no choice, no "re-identifying," and nobody "constructs" it for you. Your genetics are set from day one, from your very conception-moment.

Well, I think the same of Marxists, of course; but I don't say it's impossible for a person who claims to be a Marxist to be a Marxist.

But what does he mean when he says he's a Marxist? He might be so impressed with Marx's beard that he aspires to grow one equally magnificent, and considers himself a follower of Marx on that basis alone. Shall we call him deluded, or just stupid?

"Marxist" is a belief. Many Marxists will argue about what "true Marxism" requires. It matters little. In addition to being a chosen belief, it's most certainly a construct, too, since it can claim no divine origin whatsoever, and we know the man who invented it.

So a man may claim to be a "Marxist" on practically any grounds he likes.

But sex is not like that. It's not a construct.

...what's the principle difference?

The difference between something objectively defined by a particular belief, and something that has nothing to do with any belief at all, but is an objective, scientific and unchangeable reality.

It's the difference between you saying, "I'm a trade-unionist," and "I'm a pumpkin." The former is quite possible; the latter, utterly absurd.

[Harbal]

Oh. You just mean that you think ALL Christians are deluded. You don't mean that I'm deluded to suppose I'm a Christian.

If it's okay to identify yourself with the construct of Christian, why is it not okay to identify yourself with some construct of gender?

Well, you and I can argue over whether Christianity is a "construct" (an invention of men) or a divine ordinance; I'll say the latter, and probably you, the former. But it entirely misses the point.

Let me make it succintly: sex is not "constructed." It's what you have when you come to exist, in the first place. There's no choice, no "re-identifying," and nobody "constructs" it for you. Your genetics are set from day one, from your very conception-moment.

Yes, but the people in question don't mean sex by the word gender. I don't understand exactly what they do mean by it, but I don't understand the deep feelings you seem to have about Christianity, either. But whatever they feel about gender, and how it relates to them, seems to be very important to them, so I don't think they should be condemned for it. I still don't think they should be allowed into women's toilets, though.

[Age]

I'm pretty sure I'm exactly the same.

1. I AGREE WITH "vegeteriantaxidermy" that 'you' were MUCH so-called 'cleverer' and MORE likable, BACK THEN.
This' IS ONLY A comment, and NOT A criticism, AT ALL. After all 'I' come here, PURPOSELY, to BE NOT LIKED.

2. 'you' can NEVER BE EXACTLY the SAME, as 'you' ONCE WERE.

I used to go out of my way to offend people a lot more, "back then", so although you think I've deteriorated in one respect, perhaps I have progressed in another.

But I NEVER MEANT that 'you' had 'deteriorated' in ANY WAY, AT ALL.

It does seem odd, though, that I was more likeable when I was more offensive.

Maybe it was the humor in 'your writings', when 'you' were being so-called 'offensive', which made 'your' remarks far 'more likeable'.