The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
- Immanuel Can
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The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
A couple of days ago, I posted this. It was more or less and afterthought, a footnote to something else what was being discussed. But what surprised me is that the thread immediately died. It went silent. It slid down the list and disappeared. Somebody even started a completely new thread with an identical title, as if it was really important that this thread did not continue, no matter what, and if necessary, was replaced with a thread pretending to be it, but not containing the offensive reflection.
Most surprising. People here do not usually collectively fall silent, far less invent doppelganger topics to bury another topic.
So I'm resurrecting it. I'm happy to receive opinions and objections. It's only a "best guess" by me, and perhaps others have different "guesses" about what's going on. But it's not a bad launch point for what might well be the most important political problem we're facing today.
The context was out-of-control partisanship, particularly in America. And just as a follow-up to that, I surmised what might be happening in the hallowed halls of Washington, behind our backs. There seems to be what I called a "money and power machine" running, some strategy designed to shift power to certain elites of business, politics and media. And I speculated on how the game works. My explanation runs as follows:
"My best guess, without knowing for sure, of course, is that the money-and-power machine works this way. Money is drawn out of the public purse in the name of Ukraine. It's taken from all the taxes on ordinary Americans...billions and billions, all of which is expected to disappear in various kinds of explosions; so if it never reappears again, nobody is surprised. Where did it go? It went up in explosions...allegedly.
Except it didn't. Only some of it did.
The tax money is sent to Ukraine (and other such causes) in the name of "foreign military aid." A portion of it is used for that, of course. But some, and the profits from the arms become kick-backs and support for American politicians, coming from the arms dealers. So the formerly-tax money arrives back on American shores "laundered" as legitimate war profits, money legitimately earned by the arms dealers in "aiding" the Ukraine cause. No tax payer can any longer can recognize it as the taxes that were taken from them.
The American people are poorer. The politicians are richer. The power shifts to the wealthy, yet again; but this time, the wealthy is cloaked in both pro-democratic rhetoric and elaborate gestures of Socialist sympathies, of "heartfelt understanding of the poor and oppressed in America," so nobody notices.
And as the war worsens, more and more draconian power-moves start to look justified, as well; after all, we can't afford to lose the war, can we? So we have to give more and more trust and support to the government that's running it...And that's why the politicians will never negotiate a peace or even a withdrawal with Putin; because if they do, the war will end, and the flow of money will be reduced. They will keep fighting a "regime change" war with the largest nuclear power on the planet, just so the machine keeps churning out the money and justifying the power moves.
Did you imagine the ambitions of some of these power brokers will stop at the American borders? Think again, I say. Not for nothing is "globalism" all the rage among the elites.
Meanwhile, the public will be told, "Support Ukraine. Hate Russia. That's all you need to know." They'll be told Ukraine is a "democracy," and that "we have to make the world safe for democracy." But at least a decade ago, Farage was already warning the UK against antagonizing Putin in Ukraine, and was simply told to sit down and shut up. That, it seems, was the plan all along.
Distributing hatred is exactly what's going on. And the poor people of Ukraine pay first; but the poor of America pay richly as well. And the powers in charge are laughing all the way to the bank."
Comments? Additions? Objections? Criticisms? Cream pies in the face? Anything?
Most surprising. People here do not usually collectively fall silent, far less invent doppelganger topics to bury another topic.
So I'm resurrecting it. I'm happy to receive opinions and objections. It's only a "best guess" by me, and perhaps others have different "guesses" about what's going on. But it's not a bad launch point for what might well be the most important political problem we're facing today.
The context was out-of-control partisanship, particularly in America. And just as a follow-up to that, I surmised what might be happening in the hallowed halls of Washington, behind our backs. There seems to be what I called a "money and power machine" running, some strategy designed to shift power to certain elites of business, politics and media. And I speculated on how the game works. My explanation runs as follows:
"My best guess, without knowing for sure, of course, is that the money-and-power machine works this way. Money is drawn out of the public purse in the name of Ukraine. It's taken from all the taxes on ordinary Americans...billions and billions, all of which is expected to disappear in various kinds of explosions; so if it never reappears again, nobody is surprised. Where did it go? It went up in explosions...allegedly.
Except it didn't. Only some of it did.
The tax money is sent to Ukraine (and other such causes) in the name of "foreign military aid." A portion of it is used for that, of course. But some, and the profits from the arms become kick-backs and support for American politicians, coming from the arms dealers. So the formerly-tax money arrives back on American shores "laundered" as legitimate war profits, money legitimately earned by the arms dealers in "aiding" the Ukraine cause. No tax payer can any longer can recognize it as the taxes that were taken from them.
The American people are poorer. The politicians are richer. The power shifts to the wealthy, yet again; but this time, the wealthy is cloaked in both pro-democratic rhetoric and elaborate gestures of Socialist sympathies, of "heartfelt understanding of the poor and oppressed in America," so nobody notices.
And as the war worsens, more and more draconian power-moves start to look justified, as well; after all, we can't afford to lose the war, can we? So we have to give more and more trust and support to the government that's running it...And that's why the politicians will never negotiate a peace or even a withdrawal with Putin; because if they do, the war will end, and the flow of money will be reduced. They will keep fighting a "regime change" war with the largest nuclear power on the planet, just so the machine keeps churning out the money and justifying the power moves.
Did you imagine the ambitions of some of these power brokers will stop at the American borders? Think again, I say. Not for nothing is "globalism" all the rage among the elites.
Meanwhile, the public will be told, "Support Ukraine. Hate Russia. That's all you need to know." They'll be told Ukraine is a "democracy," and that "we have to make the world safe for democracy." But at least a decade ago, Farage was already warning the UK against antagonizing Putin in Ukraine, and was simply told to sit down and shut up. That, it seems, was the plan all along.
Distributing hatred is exactly what's going on. And the poor people of Ukraine pay first; but the poor of America pay richly as well. And the powers in charge are laughing all the way to the bank."
Comments? Additions? Objections? Criticisms? Cream pies in the face? Anything?
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
To have an askew reaction: as an older person, I have noticed some weird mirror imaging. When I was younger the Left was anti-war, less critical of the Soviet Union than the Right, dressed up in weird stuff (the hippie portion), was extremely skeptical of mainstream news, corporations and the government...
In recent years we've had what sort of looked like hippies storm the capital - with shades of hippie/lefty storming of various things in the 60s. We have the Left more critical of Putin and the Right more sympathetic. We have at least liberals more pro-war or pro-proxy war. We have the right more skeptical of mainstream news, corporations !!!! and the government.
Fortunately no one has any memory.
In recent years we've had what sort of looked like hippies storm the capital - with shades of hippie/lefty storming of various things in the 60s. We have the Left more critical of Putin and the Right more sympathetic. We have at least liberals more pro-war or pro-proxy war. We have the right more skeptical of mainstream news, corporations !!!! and the government.
Fortunately no one has any memory.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
That's astute, I think...and true. That's how I remember it, too. And the Left was pro-free-speech, pro-individualism, anti-consumerism, anti-war, skeptical of government, and anti-establishment in its values. It was truly a "counter-culture," in that sense. It was hippies in Birkenstocks and mumus preaching "love" and smoking drugs. And the peace sign was its main symbol; end the war in Vietnam, and make everybody love everybody else. "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing."Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:15 pm To have an askew reaction: as an older person, I have noticed some weird mirror imaging. When I was younger the Left was anti-war, less critical of the Soviet Union than the Right, dressed up in weird stuff (the hippie portion), was extremely skeptical of mainstream news, corporations and the government...
In recent years we've had what sort of looked like hippies storm the capital - with shades of hippie/lefty storming of various things in the 60s. We have the Left more critical of Putin and the Right more sympathetic. We have at least liberals more pro-war or pro-proxy war. We have the right more skeptical of mainstream news, corporations !!!! and the government.
Fortunately no one has any memory.
But now, the Left is reversed on all these core values.
The explanation may be simple. It may just be that when the Left was not in power, it was against everything confining. Now that it has power, it is against everything that might take that power away. But the truth's a little more complex than that, probably. It's that the elites have actually discovered how useful the Left can be in serving its agenda, and is now exploiting it for all it's worth. As a means of forcing conformity, collectivism, it turns out, is unparalleled. And because the Left also has a high-minded authoritarian bent and collectivist intentions, it can be employed to brutalize and silence opposition to totalitarianism. There is little people fear so much as widespread social rejection and shunning, let alone demonizing. The new powers-that-be seem to have discovered how useful this can be as a tool of mass repression.
I keep coming back to this question, that really troubles me: why is it that all our power-and-wealth elites are now so totally onside with Socialism? Why are the Bezos's and the banks, the Hollywood privileged and the political establishment, the globalists of the WEF and Europrean Union, and the demagogues of the press, all so fanatically pro-war and pro-collectivist right now? What do they see, that we ordinary folks are not recognizing, that means that their power is not at all threatened by the propaganda of the "New Society that's coming," and why are they so overjoyed to conceive of that society as falling along Socialist lines?
Continued thinking needed.
Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
Wasn't it the Bush Jr. administration of your country, so the "right", that launched a series of wars in the 2000s?
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
I'm sorry that I didn't see your post. I haven't read all of them. It's a good post. Had I seen it I would have agreed. I apologize for not seeing it.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:08 pm "My best guess, without knowing for sure, of course, is that the money-and-power machine works this way. Money is drawn out of the public purse in the name of Ukraine. It's taken from all the taxes on ordinary Americans...billions and billions, all of which is expected to disappear in various kinds of explosions; so if it never reappears again, nobody is surprised. Where did it go? It went up in explosions...allegedly.
Except it didn't. Only some of it did.
The tax money is sent to Ukraine (and other such causes) in the name of "foreign military aid." A portion of it is used for that, of course. But some, and the profits from the arms become kick-backs and support for American politicians, coming from the arms dealers. So the formerly-tax money arrives back on American shores "laundered" as legitimate war profits, money legitimately earned by the arms dealers in "aiding" the Ukraine cause. No tax payer can any longer can recognize it as the taxes that were taken from them.
The American people are poorer. The politicians are richer. The power shifts to the wealthy, yet again; but this time, the wealthy is cloaked in both pro-democratic rhetoric and elaborate gestures of Socialist sympathies, of "heartfelt understanding of the poor and oppressed in America," so nobody notices.
And as the war worsens, more and more draconian power-moves start to look justified, as well; after all, we can't afford to lose the war, can we? So we have to give more and more trust and support to the government that's running it...And that's why the politicians will never negotiate a peace or even a withdrawal with Putin; because if they do, the war will end, and the flow of money will be reduced. They will keep fighting a "regime change" war with the largest nuclear power on the planet, just so the machine keeps churning out the money and justifying the power moves.
Did you imagine the ambitions of some of these power brokers will stop at the American borders? Think again, I say. Not for nothing is "globalism" all the rage among the elites.
Meanwhile, the public will be told, "Support Ukraine. Hate Russia. That's all you need to know." They'll be told Ukraine is a "democracy," and that "we have to make the world safe for democracy." But at least a decade ago, Farage was already warning the UK against antagonizing Putin in Ukraine, and was simply told to sit down and shut up. That, it seems, was the plan all along.
Distributing hatred is exactly what's going on. And the poor people of Ukraine pay first; but the poor of America pay richly as well. And the powers in charge are laughing all the way to the bank."[/color]
¯\_(*_*)_/¯
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
Oh, sure. With enormous bipartisan support, but yes. And the Left did come out against those wars. It's a more recent shift, from my perspective, to where the Left is more intervention positive. Liberals have always been more pro-government, but the Left was more skeptical. Now the Left seems pretty positive, in general, about the mainstream media, corporations and government.
I think the rise of a very skeptical portion of the right, that was more marginal, meant that leftists had to go against them. Everyone just kneejerks nowadays.
Well, not everyone, but the bulk.
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
And my schema was oversimplified. And now we can complexify a bit. The hippie left was one left. There were communists and socialists and anarchists and union centered leftists and so on.Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:31 pm That's astute, I think...and true. That's how I remember it, too. And the Left was pro-free-speech, pro-individualism, anti-consumerism, anti-war, skeptical of government, and anti-establishment in its values. It was truly a "counter-culture," in that sense. It was hippies in Birkenstocks and mumus preaching "love" and smoking drugs. And the peace sign was its main symbol; end the war in Vietnam, and make everybody love everybody else. "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing."
but it's not socialism. The corporations are still making a mint. No one is seriously going after Wall St. or trying to reverse the privitization of everything.I keep coming back to this question, that really troubles me: why is it that all our power-and-wealth elites are now so totally onside with Socialism?
They are not economically socialist. They are globalist, captialist and even monopolist, going beyond previous capitalisms, where even the right acknowledged restrictions on monopolies. Or pseudo-monopolies. Capitalism moving to oligarchy.Why are the Bezos's and the banks, the Hollywood privileged and the political establishment, the globalists of the WEF and Europrean Union, and the demagogues of the press, all so fanatically pro-war and pro-collectivist right now?
They don't give a shit about the social issues. They just use these to divide people.
Because nothing is really going at the wallets of the elite.What do they see, that we ordinary folks are not recognizing, that means that their power is not at all threatened by the propaganda of the "New Society that's coming," and why are they so overjoyed to conceive of that society as falling along Socialist lines?
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
Are you more interested in preventing war and disaster or are you more interested in preventing "socialism"?Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:31 pmThat's astute, I think...and true. That's how I remember it, too. And the Left was pro-free-speech, pro-individualism, anti-consumerism, anti-war, skeptical of government, and anti-establishment in its values. It was truly a "counter-culture," in that sense. It was hippies in Birkenstocks and mumus preaching "love" and smoking drugs. And the peace sign was its main symbol; end the war in Vietnam, and make everybody love everybody else. "I'd Like to Teach the World to Sing."Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:15 pm To have an askew reaction: as an older person, I have noticed some weird mirror imaging. When I was younger the Left was anti-war, less critical of the Soviet Union than the Right, dressed up in weird stuff (the hippie portion), was extremely skeptical of mainstream news, corporations and the government...
In recent years we've had what sort of looked like hippies storm the capital - with shades of hippie/lefty storming of various things in the 60s. We have the Left more critical of Putin and the Right more sympathetic. We have at least liberals more pro-war or pro-proxy war. We have the right more skeptical of mainstream news, corporations !!!! and the government.
Fortunately no one has any memory.
But now, the Left is reversed on all these core values.
The explanation may be simple. It may just be that when the Left was not in power, it was against everything confining. Now that it has power, it is against everything that might take that power away. But the truth's a little more complex than that, probably. It's that the elites have actually discovered how useful the Left can be in serving its agenda, and is now exploiting it for all it's worth. As a means of forcing conformity, collectivism, it turns out, is unparalleled. And because the Left also has a high-minded authoritarian bent and collectivist intentions, it can be employed to brutalize and silence opposition to totalitarianism. There is little people fear so much as widespread social rejection and shunning, let alone demonizing. The new powers-that-be seem to have discovered how useful this can be as a tool of mass repression.
I keep coming back to this question, that really troubles me: why is it that all our power-and-wealth elites are now so totally onside with Socialism? Why are the Bezos's and the banks, the Hollywood privileged and the political establishment, the globalists of the WEF and Europrean Union, and the demagogues of the press, all so fanatically pro-war and pro-collectivist right now? What do they see, that we ordinary folks are not recognizing, that means that their power is not at all threatened by the propaganda of the "New Society that's coming," and why are they so overjoyed to conceive of that society as falling along Socialist lines?
Continued thinking needed.
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
I think this is an important question. We could call it fascism and in the end it looks pretty similar...and all the while power is concentrating and governments are flirting with a war that has no party preference in its killing.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:16 pm Are you more interested in preventing war and disaster or are you more interested in preventing "socialism"?
Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
While the conspiracy alleged in the OP is possible and I certainly wouldn't put it past the powerful to not skim money off of the top any time it is possible to do so, the Ukraine situation is likely neither unique nor necessarily especially advantageous for doing so.
- Immanuel Can
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
I agree that it's not what Socialism claims to be. However, what Socialism claims it is, and what it has turned out to be in every case in world history, are two very, very different things, obviously. It purports to be about equality, fairness and worker's rights; but never in history has it ended up being any of that.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:07 pmImmanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 4:31 pmbut it's not socialism. The corporations are still making a mint. No one is seriously going after Wall St. or trying to reverse the privitization of everything.I keep coming back to this question, that really troubles me: why is it that all our power-and-wealth elites are now so totally onside with Socialism?
What's evident now, though, is thatthe elites certainly are using the methods and rhetoric of Socialism. And it's clear there's all too much in the Socialist propaganda package that the elites have found useful to their plans...so useful that they now LOVE Socialism, it seems.
Well, they're clearly not giving up their fortunes to "the common good," are they? But no, they're not free-marketers either. They love monopolies. And Socialism, since it centralizes everything under single control, serves the goal of monopolization superbly. Additionally, beause Socialism is inherently a one-party-with-no-alternative system, it rationalizes central governmental control as well, and because it needs propaganda for the masses, it serves the media monopolies as well.They are not economically socialist.Why are the Bezos's and the banks, the Hollywood privileged and the political establishment, the globalists of the WEF and Europrean Union, and the demagogues of the press, all so fanatically pro-war and pro-collectivist right now?
I'd absolutely agree. This is all about strategy, for them. And division serves the purposes of shattering opposition, silencing critique and rationalizing more draconian mass-management measures.They don't give a shit about the social issues. They just use these to divide people.
Right. But Socialism says it will! So why are these people so completely unafraid that Socialism will turn on them, and demand their millions, their privilege, their monopoly on goods and services, in the public interest? One would think they'd fear a truly Socialist development above all things...but they don't. In fact, they yearn for it to come. They're driving it as hard as they possibly can.Because nothing is really going at the wallets of the elite.What do they see, that we ordinary folks are not recognizing, that means that their power is not at all threatened by the propaganda of the "New Society that's coming," and why are they so overjoyed to conceive of that society as falling along Socialist lines?
Why are we not more worried about how happy they are to be promoting Socialism? What do they realize, that we do not?
- Immanuel Can
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
I hadn't considered the two things as being at all in conflict with each other. I think we can get both -- and should, of course.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:16 pmAre you more interested in preventing war and disaster or are you more interested in preventing "socialism"?Continued thinking needed.
But the big question is, "Why aren't the elites interested in preventing Socialism?" And "why is it the Left that both started and is now campaigning for the perpetuation of war?"
- Immanuel Can
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
Probably right. Another war would do. So long as the bombs are going off somewhere, there's no chance of the accountants catching up with the money trail. You can't hire accountants to account for munitions. They get blown up.LuckyR wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:23 pm While the conspiracy alleged in the OP is possible and I certainly wouldn't put it past the powerful to not skim money off of the top any time it is possible to do so, the Ukraine situation is likely neither unique nor necessarily especially advantageous for doing so.
But this war looks particularly serviceable to the aims of the elites at present. It seems to achieve multiple goals for them at the same time. It's off American soil, it involves potentially the consolidation of Europe, it wrecks the oil and gas supply, it justifies reorganizing the global power map, it looks unimpeachably 'good' because it's against a dictator (on the side of a dictator too, but never mind that)...and I'm sure there are a lot of other irons in the fire right now, too...like the upcoming elections, upon which it could be leveraged as well.
So Ukraine clearly is a "good enough" war for them. Whether there's an even more advantageous (for them) one they could have chosen, who knows?
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
Who on the "Left" is "campaigning for the perpetuation of war?" I'm certainly not (if you believe I'm a "leftist").Immanuel Can wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:32 pmI hadn't considered the two things as being at all in conflict with each other. I think we can get both -- and should, of course.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:16 pmAre you more interested in preventing war and disaster or are you more interested in preventing "socialism"?Continued thinking needed.
But the big question is, "Why aren't the elites interested in preventing Socialism?" And "why is it the Left that both started and is now campaigning for the perpetuation of war?"
- Immanuel Can
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Re: The War Machine, and A Very Curious Silence
The Democrats certainly are, following the Bidens; but also a great number of the Republicans, such as Mike Pence and McConnell. Meanwhile, other Democrats, like Kennedy and Gabbard, are opposing it with the strenuous objection of their own party, as are a few Republicans, like DeSantis and Trump, who are being savagely backstabbed by their party. But it's really the majority of incumbent power-brokers on both sides who are insisting.Gary Childress wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 5:39 pm Who on the "Left" is "campaigning for the perpetuation of war?" I'm certainly not (if you believe I'm a "leftist").
This is really not a partisan issue. Clearly, there are powermongers on both sides who want the war. The question is why you and I should want it, or why the people of Russia and Ukraine should want it.