Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Should you think about your duty, or about the consequences of your actions? Or should you concentrate on becoming a good person?

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Veritas Aequitas
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Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Philosophical Realism is synonymous with Metaphysical Realism;

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
To date, no philosophical realist has been able to prove Philosophical Realism is realistic and tenable.

Despite grounded on an illusion, Philosophical Realists are so ignorant and arrogant in relying on such an illusion to insist Morality is not Objective.

Here is why Philosophical Realism aka Metaphysical Realism is illusory and no way can such an ideology can reflect reality [FSK-ed].
Challenges to Metaphysical Realism
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win ... challenge/

According to metaphysical realism, the world is as it is independently of how humans or other inquiring agents take it to be. The objects the world contains, together with their properties and the relations they enter into, fix the world’s nature and these objects exist independently of our ability to discover they do. Unless this is so, metaphysical realists argue, none of our beliefs about our world could be objectively true since true beliefs tell us how things are and beliefs are objective when true or false independently of what anyone might think.

Many philosophers believe metaphysical realism is just plain common sense. Others believe it to be a direct implication of modern science, which paints humans as fallible creatures adrift in an inhospitable world not of their making. Nonetheless, metaphysical realism is controversial. Besides the analytic question of what it means to assert that objects exist independently of the mind, metaphysical realism also raises epistemological problems: how can we obtain knowledge of a mind-independent world? There are also prior semantic problems, such as how links are set up between our beliefs and the mind-independent states of affairs they allegedly represent. This is the Representation Problem.

Anti-realists deny the world is mind-independent. Believing the epistemological and semantic problems to be insoluble, they conclude realism must be false. In this entry I review a number of semantic and epistemological challenges to realism all based on the Representation Problem:

The Manifestation Argument: the cognitive and linguistic behaviour of an agent provides no evidence that realist mind/world links exist;

The Language Acquisition Argument: if such links were to exist language learning would be impossible;

The Brain-in-a-Vat Argument: realism entails both that we could be massively deluded (‘brains in a vat’) and that if we were we could not even form the belief that we were;

The Conceptual Relativity Argument: it is senseless to ask what the world contains independently of how we conceive of it, since the objects that exist depend on the conceptual scheme used to classify them;

The Model-Theoretic Argument: realists must either hold that an ideal theory passing every conceivable test could be false or that perfectly determinate terms like ‘cat’ are massively indeterminate, and both alternatives are absurd.
There is no way philosophical realists can avoid the above dilemma.
5. Summary
https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/win ... lenge/#Sum

We have considered a number of semantic challenges to Realism, the thesis that the objects and properties that the world contains exist independently of our conception or perception of them.
These challenges have come from two camps:
(1) neo-verificationists led by Dummett who assimilate belief in mind-independent world to a belief in a verification-transcendent conception of truth which they profess to find unintelligible, and
(2) pragmatists led by Putnam who also question the intelligibility of the realist’s mind-independent world but for reasons independent of any commitment to verificationism.
The above article merely considered two anti-realists camps from the analytical traditions but did not cover those from the non-analytical traditions.
On all fronts, debate between realists and their anti-realist opponents is still very much open.
Nope!
From the non-analytical tradition of the Kantian approach, Philosophical Realism [mind-independence] as an ideology is a dead-duck.
If realists could provide a plausible theory about how correspondences between mental symbols and the items in the world to which they refer might be set up, many of these challenges could be met.
Alternatively, if they could explain how, consistently with our knowledge of a mind-independent world, no such correspondences are required to begin with, many of the anti-realist objections would fall away as irrelevant.
For many realists, the Correspondence Theory of Truth in justifying Philosophical Realism is an embarrassment, so they reject it outright.
Regardless, the fundamental of Philosophical Realism it is by default separated by a Reality Gap which require some sort of correspondence or mirroring [explicit or implicit] to the ultimate mind-independent reality [noumenon or thing-by-itself] they assumed to exists.
In the absence of such explanations it is still entirely reasonable for realists to believe that the correspondences are in place, however, and there can, indeed, be very good evidence for believing this.
Ignorance of Nature’s reference-fixing mechanism is no reason for denying it exists.
To console oneself of the above is self-ignorance and self-delusion.
The philosophical realism dilemma is fundamentally a psychological problem and can only be resolved psychologically, not epistemologically nor ontologically.

My Point:
There is no way Philosophical Realists can prove Philosophical Realism is realistic and tenable because it is grounded on an ideology from an evolutionary default of external_ness to facilitate basis survival.
The problem of the dilemma of Philosophical Realism is more of a psychological issue than epistemological or ontological issue.

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Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes:

The [Model-Theoretic] Argument purports to show that the Representation Problem—
to explain how our mental symbols and words get hooked up to mind-independent objects and
how our sentences and thoughts target mind-independent states of affairs—
is insoluble.

According to the Model-Theoretic Argument, there are simply too many ways in which our mental symbols can be mapped onto items in the world.
The consequence of this is a dilemma for the realist.

The first horn of the dilemma is that s/he must accept that what our symbols refer to is massively indeterminate.

The second horn is that s/he must insist that
even an ideal theory, whose terms and predicates can demonstrably be mapped veridically onto objects and properties in the world
might still be false, i.e., that such a mapping might not be the right one, the one ‘intended’.

Neither alternative can be defended, according to anti-realists.
Concerning the first alternative, massive indeterminacy for perfectly determinate terms is absurd.
As for the second, for realists to contend that even an ideal theory could be false is to resort to unmotivated dogmatism, since on their own admission we cannot tell which mapping the world has set up for us.
Such dogmatism leaves the realist with no answer to a skepticism which undermines any capacity to reliably represent the world, anti-realists maintain.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Wed Jul 05, 2023 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Notes: KIV
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:33 aml

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
Oh, you claimed it. Well, I guess that's settled then. VA claimed it.
Skepdick
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Skepdick »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:33 aml

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
Oh, you claimed it. Well, I guess that's settled then. VA claimed it.
If you disagree with the premise It's really easy to settle this - take the contra-positive and prove it.
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Harbal
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Harbal »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:33 aml

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
Oh, you claimed it. Well, I guess that's settled then. VA claimed it.
🙂
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Flannel Jesus »

🙃
Atla
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Atla »

Anti-realists deny the world is mind-independent. Believing the epistemological and semantic problems to be insoluble, they conclude realism must be false.
Non-sequitur for cowards who can't handle a little uncertainty.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:33 aml

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
Oh, you claimed it. Well, I guess that's settled then. VA claimed it.
I would just like to make this clear:
I consider both realism and anti-realism unproven and therefore false.

I've now claimed that.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Flannel Jesus »

I claim the moon. Shotgun.
Atla
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Atla »

I claim you guys don't even exist, so you don't get to claim things.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Iwannaplato »

Atla wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:35 pm I claim you guys don't even exist, so you don't get to claim things.
You're using my logic FSK, so you've conceded.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Iwannaplato »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:30 pm I claim the moon. Shotgun.
Buzz Aldrin, yes. Michael Collins, just watching.
Atla
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Atla »

Iwannaplato wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:16 pm
Atla wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 4:35 pm I claim you guys don't even exist, so you don't get to claim things.
You're using my logic FSK, so you've conceded.
We use the same FSK but mine can also make coffee so it's better.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: Morality: Philosophical Realism's Dilemma

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 10:23 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Tue Jul 04, 2023 9:33 aml

As I had claimed Philosophical Realism [aka Metaphysical Realism] (mind-independence) is grounded on chasing after an illusion.
Oh, you claimed it. Well, I guess that's settled then. VA claimed it.
This is childish and frivolous.
You're ignorant of the Principle of Charity?

The focus of this thread[OP] is not about the details of what I had claimed, that is only in passing.
If you are serious about my claims, I can provide you the links to the relevant OPs.

When I stated 'had claimed' it implied that what is claimed is supported by in depth arguments and if you have read my threads you should be aware of them.
It is only natural for me to claim that my proofs are true, the onus is on you to prove they are false; this is what a Philosophy Forum like this is about.
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