Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:21 pmIt is nowhere near most people who call themselves determinists. And Free-will, if it exists, cannot be renounced, or, better put, the renouncing would have no effect. They'd still be free.
That's not my experience. In my experience, Free-Will-ism is a minority belief among thinkers and the general population. Most Americans do not say or believe they have Free-Will, unfortunately. Most people are convinced by Determinism, it seems to me, because of the many reasons and rationales I've outlined. Determinism absolves people of their Shame, Sin, Guilt, Worry, etc. It's a salve. Thus they renounce Free-Will. Sure you can argue they still have it—that Free-Will is not the type of thing or attribute that a living being or entity can
possibly reject, but then you join Free-Will-ists in a way, with a type of 'Objective' mindset about the nature of life and behaviors in general.
I think these matters can be simplified. Animals don't need to "take responsibility" for their desires or themselves; Nature does it for them. Animals don't get to, like humans, sit around in comfort all day, contemplating the Nature of Reality, Philosophizing, reading and writing texts from hundreds and thousands of years ago. Animals, instead, must learn "the hard way", the mistakes and negative consequences of their Free-Will. They don't have the luxury of ignoring it, deluding themselves, or wishing it away. Unlike humans, who can believe in lies freely, untruths, and live a full life in doing so...often times not paying the price for it. And that's a luxury, to many Humans, Bliss, selective ignorance, delusional thinking.
Responsibility...when Convenient.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:21 pmWait, some parts of life show more free will than others. Free will can't have degrees.
Why not? Doesn't freedom have degrees? If you have more options, more choices, then doesn't that constitute more freedom? How about higher intelligence, imagination, creativity, don't those attributes allow for more freedom?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:21 pmOne could strive for more freedom. One could fight back against external limitations.
But whatever you choose to do is a sign of free will if free will is the case. Every decision, even that of saying yes to a shitty tyrant of a boss. That's free will. There are no moments in a life that are not exuding free will, to the same degree.
I'm convinced...Free-Will it is then!
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:21 pmThis is where I think you are the other free willers are confused here.
YOu see free will is a certain attitude and set of actions in relation to authority.
I'm detecting a bit of projection here...is Free-Will only so, with respect to 'authority'? Can a person or animal have Free-Will while isolated and alone, unruled and "uncoerced"?
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:21 pmDeterminists can fight for their rights, resist authority, tell their bosses to go fuck themselves without in the slightest way being a hypocrite as a determinist.
George has a lot of free will.
That's a very confused statement.
My favorite moments in my life were when I enacted free will.
That's a very confused statement.
If you choose to knuckle under authority, that's a choice. If we have free will you exhibited as much free will as the guy who ran at the King with a sword.
You seem to view free will as a character trait: he was noble and free will.
Confused.
It's describing something fundamental about our nature and the nature of reality. It may be a correct model. I maybe an incorrect model. But it's not a matter of degree or something some people have or don't have.
It's not a synonym for feisty.
To me, Free-Will entails very large degrees of unpredictability, life and existence which are Non-determined, Un-determinable. Consider olympic athletes, who can perform "the impossible", or Tony Hawk skating, or a Scientist/Physicist/Chemist creating new compounds and substances...consider geniuses of every type and variety, breaking the mold. Consider musical prodigies, creating new sounds, rhythms, melodies. All of these, are unpredictable to the rest of the masses and laymen. All of these represent Free-Will, not that they were "Determined" to do so ahead of time.
It's a Red Herring style of logic. The Determinist can always fall back upon "they were Destined to do so", in any and every argument. So even when proved wrong, their crutch reaffirms their prepositions, and repeats. Determinism cannot be falsified. Meanwhile, Determinists can point to every failed endeavor as "not your Free-Will", "not what you had intended to do". You see...selective-responsibility, as-if only success, glory, and victory are the results of a hypothetically
free will.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:25 pm
Skepdick wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:06 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Sep 07, 2023 1:04 pm
Great. I'm heading home now. Thanks.
I think you should make alternative lunch plans...
I think he meant yes (he could), not yes (he will).
I'm so relieved that you said this. In the back of my mind - it's embarrassing to admit - I thought it was remotely possible I would not find the lunch I asked for. Oh, the disappointment in the disconfirmation of his magical all powerfulness. But now, regardless of what I find or do not find, I can consider the outcome as fitting his claims.
Though there is magic present here, regardless. For me that is.
I am surprised to find that I think he may actually believe what he said.
How was the Tandoori lunch...delicious?
Here's the kicker. How does
Absolutely Free Will revolve around your, or even my, expectations? If AFW should exist, then the proof for you, is that Tandoori lunch. I guess, in future debates, I need to have a slew of Tandoori lunchboxes at my disposal, when heading into the Free-Will v Determinism debates, giving me the edge. When Determinists are in doubt, I arrange a Tandoori lunch delivery at the ready.
Would that then
seal the deal? We could finally put this debate to rest, for the Ages? Maybe you'll be convinced, but the other Determinists might have different lunch selections in mind...