Ahh, I thought my insignificance wasn't genuine.
Thanks for setting me straight.
Sure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
Call it whatever super or not so super makes no difference to the fact that it’s unknowable even to itself.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pmSure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.Dontaskme wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:27 pmCall it whatever super or not so super makes no difference to the fact that it’s unknowable even to itself.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:05 pmSure nature is natural, whatever is is natural. At least in my schema. Though that includes things that get called supernatural, at least, in my experience.
I find it difficult to understand how anyone could not experience such numinous feelings with regard to nature, but that's just me, of course. And yes, the power of nature is awesome, and can indeed be frightening. This in no way detracts from its power.iambiguous wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:57 pm "Numinosity refers to the spiritual power in the relationship between the individual and other people and things."
I was once a devout Christian. And I felt something akin to this in church. But once God and religious crumbled in my life I have only felt this sort of "spirituality" in regard to the staggering mystery that is existence itself. Something analogous I suspect to what those like Einstein felt.
The more you think -- really think -- about questions of this sort...
Why something instead of nothing?
Why this something and not something else?
Where does the human condition fit into the whole understanding of this particular something itself?
What of solipsism, sim worlds, dream worlds, the Matrix?
What of the multiverse?
...the deeper the mystery gets and the more you are left grappling to find something -- anything -- that might possibly explain it.
As for nature itself, no, try as I might, I have never felt anything akin to a "spiritual" connection to it.
And then the part where nature revolves as well around these things...
"...an endless procession of earthquakes and volcanic eruptions and tornadoes and hurricanes and great floods and great droughts and great fires and deadly viral and bacterial plagues and miscarriages and hundreds and hundreds of medical and mental afflictions and extinction events...making life on Earth a living hell for countless millions of men, women and children down through the ages..."
The other side of this "spiritual" coin as it were.
I think a lot of factors can lead to this. The Abrahamic traditions create a pressure to view nature at best as neutral at worst as something quite negative. We also have a whole history of contrasting humans with nature. Humans being above nature and better than nature, civilization at war with nature (outside us, inside us). And it doesn't really matter if, for example, one's parents are humanists, they still may have inherited a distaste for nature. Of course both humanists and Abrahamists can love nature, even immerse themselves in it regularly. But there are huge meme pressures from humanists and Abrahamists that want to separate us from animals/plants and nature in general. The pagan/animist/shamanist ways of looking at the world are suppressed by both sides of what is often looked at as a two sided struggle when in fact there are more players in the game.
Abrahamic religions also regard nature as something to be exploited, and this de-sacralisation of the natural world over many centuries has led people to feel disconnected and adrift.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 6:56 amI think a lot of factors can lead to this. The Abrahamic traditions create a pressure to view nature at best as neutral at worst as something quite negative. We also have a whole history of contrasting humans with nature. Humans being above nature and better than nature, civilization at war with nature (outside us, inside us). And it doesn't really matter if, for example, one's parents are humanists, they still may have inherited a distaste for nature. Of course both humanists and Abrahamists can love nature, even immerse themselves in it regularly. But there are huge meme pressures from humanists and Abrahamists that want to separate us from animals/plants and nature in general. The pagan/animist/shamanist ways of looking at the world are suppressed by both sides of what is often looked at as a two sided struggle when in fact there are more players in the game.
Of course any child can rebel against parental views And there have always been alternative views and individuals in civilization.
Growing up in a city can also leave one at a loss in nature. It's not a rule, but it can limit one.
I don't know this.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pm
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.
How odd.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pmSome odd things are going on. There's still things to discover.
How very odd.Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pmAnd 'matter' that's a word with no meaning. It just means 'stuff considered real' by materialists.
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 8:03 pm
I don't know how you know this. Nor what you're referring to.
I don't think that's true, though. I can go to a place I've never been before and know nothing about, and get a sudden numinous feeling. That's why I think there must be some physical process at work.Sculptor wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 12:38 pm There is nothing about a space, unless you know what its importance is.
We are all the time walking upon ground that has seen death and destruction for millions of years.
It is only when you have been informed that the ground is "scared" that you are filled with a sense of awe.
This is powerful evidence that the "feeling" in endogenous, and not some mystical essence of the earth.