seeking meaning and purpose

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Peter Kropotkin
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seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

while I wait for Iwannaplato to write the great philosophical
thread that will be so brilliant, that I Kropotkin will be ashamed
to write philosophy ever again, while we wait..
I thought I should engage with my sad and pathetic philosophy,
at least according to Iwanna....

the question we often ask in the writing and reading of
novels and plays and philosophy, what is the impact
of the current society/state have on literature?

but that is, as often the case, the wrong way to look at the
society/state and literature...

what would should be asking is this, what does the novel,
plays and philosophy currently says about the nature of
the society/state?

we see in the philosophy, literature and other works of
ART, that our current society/state is devoid of anything to
say.....let us take another look at the creative work of today,
movies..... Movies in our times, 2023, have no creative engagement
the "Superhero" movies that are so popular today, have no
creative or philosophical content...it is simply about the action,
not the ideas behind the "superhero" movies....why do we need,
in this time and place, "superhero" movies?

as Heidegger once said, (in an interview)...

"Only a god can save us now"

and that is the point of the "superhero" movie... only a god/
superhero can save us now.. the issues facing us are so big
and complicated that we cannot save ourselves...only a
god/superhero can save us... but I disagree with this "analysis"
I do believe that we can save ourselves.... and the path to
this is first and foremost, a belief in who we are.....
we keep thinking of ourselves as children who need to be
taken care of, I am not a child needing to be taking care of...
I am an adult...and I can take care of myself, thank you very
much....if the present does not offer us any creative possibilities,
then perhaps we should look to the future and see what is
possible for us... but we can't... the conservative holds to the
past as being the only possible guide we can use in our
understanding of what it means to be human....
and this conservative belief, holds sway in the media, the ARTS,
the movies, literature..

I disagree, as usual... I think we can find meaning and purpose
in our future... what should we be attempting to reach, as a goal,
can give us meaning and purpose that we otherwise might not
be able to grasp....to be kind and intellectual people, is a
goal to be desired and a goal that we can use to reach for,
a goal/purpose that we can use to strive for... to act upon,
to become.... we can use future goals/purposes to launch
in us, our path into the future.. what kind of
people should we be, is a call to action and a call
to become those people....what beliefs should we hold to
become the people we think we should be?
that is the question.......

we are here today, and we want to be there tomorrow, what is the plan
to make that journey? How do we go from here to there?
whereas our current ism, ideology, capitalism has no such
goal or purpose... it only goal is to make money, and seeking
money only leads to seeking more money, it has no other goal/purpose...
and that is the failure, part of anyway, of capitalism....
it has no other goal or purpose to engage with or in....
just make money..... and that is the only goal/purpose of
capitalism.... it certainly make no attempt at ethics or
morality... ethics and morality are antithetical to capitalism...
because to make money requires, demands us to betray and
even destroy ethics/morality... having ethics/morality
prevents one from gaining money...

which is the only goal/purpose worth seeking, at least in
Modern day America... to become, to be anything
anything other than wealthy or famous is hostile/forbidden
in capitalism....

what is the point of being human, what goal should we and ought
we to pursue? that is the question....

Kropotkin
Peter Kropotkin
Posts: 1455
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

our ARTS, literature, movies, and media points out a
great epiphany...that we, as a state and society,
have nothing to say... we have nothing to say about
what it means be human....and we have nothing to say about
what we should or ought to be doing...we talk a great game
about the past, but nothing about the future...
where our focus should be... what it means to be
human in the future.... the only genre that is even remotely
close to speaking about what it means to be human is,

Science Fiction....

in both movies and books, we can see what it means to human
in time....and we cannot account for being human without
some reference to time.... we are creatures of time and space...
and it is time we come to the acknowledgement of this fact....
and that, for now anyway, exists within Science Fiction...

Kropotkin
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Harbal
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Harbal »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:28 pm

the question we often ask in the writing and reading of
novels and plays and philosophy, what is the impact
of the current society/state have on literature?



Kropotkin
I have never asked that question, and although I can't say that I have never heard anyone else ask it, I certainly haven't heard it asked often. Can you provide any statistics to support your claim that this question is often asked? It would be particularly helpful if you could give us a few instances of well known and respected people saying it, as opposed to, say, the man who delivers your mail, or you.
Peter Kropotkin
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Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:11 am

Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Peter Kropotkin »

:roll:

Kropotkin
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Harbal
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Harbal »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:15 pm :roll:

Kropotkin
Never mind rolling your eyes, Kropotkin; I demand that you reveal your sources immediately. :x
Eodnhoj7
Posts: 8595
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Eodnhoj7 »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:28 pm while I wait for Iwannaplato to write the great philosophical
thread that will be so brilliant, that I Kropotkin will be ashamed
to write philosophy ever again, while we wait..
I thought I should engage with my sad and pathetic philosophy,
at least according to Iwanna....

the question we often ask in the writing and reading of
novels and plays and philosophy, what is the impact
of the current society/state have on literature?

but that is, as often the case, the wrong way to look at the
society/state and literature...

what would should be asking is this, what does the novel,
plays and philosophy currently says about the nature of
the society/state?

we see in the philosophy, literature and other works of
ART, that our current society/state is devoid of anything to
say.....let us take another look at the creative work of today,
movies..... Movies in our times, 2023, have no creative engagement
the "Superhero" movies that are so popular today, have no
creative or philosophical content...it is simply about the action,
not the ideas behind the "superhero" movies....why do we need,
in this time and place, "superhero" movies?

as Heidegger once said, (in an interview)...

"Only a god can save us now"

and that is the point of the "superhero" movie... only a god/
superhero can save us now.. the issues facing us are so big
and complicated that we cannot save ourselves...only a
god/superhero can save us... but I disagree with this "analysis"
I do believe that we can save ourselves.... and the path to
this is first and foremost, a belief in who we are.....
we keep thinking of ourselves as children who need to be
taken care of, I am not a child needing to be taking care of...
I am an adult...and I can take care of myself, thank you very
much....if the present does not offer us any creative possibilities,
then perhaps we should look to the future and see what is
possible for us... but we can't... the conservative holds to the
past as being the only possible guide we can use in our
understanding of what it means to be human....
and this conservative belief, holds sway in the media, the ARTS,
the movies, literature..

I disagree, as usual... I think we can find meaning and purpose
in our future... what should we be attempting to reach, as a goal,
can give us meaning and purpose that we otherwise might not
be able to grasp....to be kind and intellectual people, is a
goal to be desired and a goal that we can use to reach for,
a goal/purpose that we can use to strive for... to act upon,
to become.... we can use future goals/purposes to launch
in us, our path into the future.. what kind of
people should we be, is a call to action and a call
to become those people....what beliefs should we hold to
become the people we think we should be?
that is the question.......

we are here today, and we want to be there tomorrow, what is the plan
to make that journey? How do we go from here to there?
whereas our current ism, ideology, capitalism has no such
goal or purpose... it only goal is to make money, and seeking
money only leads to seeking more money, it has no other goal/purpose...
and that is the failure, part of anyway, of capitalism....
it has no other goal or purpose to engage with or in....
just make money..... and that is the only goal/purpose of
capitalism.... it certainly make no attempt at ethics or
morality... ethics and morality are antithetical to capitalism...
because to make money requires, demands us to betray and
even destroy ethics/morality... having ethics/morality
prevents one from gaining money...

which is the only goal/purpose worth seeking, at least in
Modern day America... to become, to be anything
anything other than wealthy or famous is hostile/forbidden
in capitalism....

what is the point of being human, what goal should we and ought
we to pursue? that is the question....

Kropotkin
Perpetually flaunting off possessions makes people restless, modern culture (specifically social media) is based around this action.

The goal? Stillness... as with stillness everything is embraced.
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Dontaskme
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Dontaskme »

Eodnhoj7 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:24 pm
Perpetually flaunting off possessions makes people restless, modern culture (specifically social media) is based around this action.

The goal? Stillness... as with stillness everything is embraced.
There's a place of perfect peace and stillness, but no one wants to live there. ⛔
No one wants to die. 🆓
Iwannaplato
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Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Iwannaplato »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:15 pm :roll:

Kropotkin
There's a to me creepy tradition in politics, where certain politicians start speaking in we terms. It can happen in other contexts - sects, for example. Sometimes the 'we' can be used in ways that don't smack of someone assuming too much, but in many both left and right regimes, we speak has covered for people making it seem like their own personal motives are not present or guiding their decisions. It's a way of electing one's opinion.

I can't say for sure if Harbal was reacting to your use of 'we' this way, but I have also noticed generalizations coupled with oversimplifications in your posts.

It was a pretty simple request on his part, politely made.
Iwannaplato
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Iwannaplato »

Peter Kropotkin wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:28 pm while I wait for Iwannaplato to write the great philosophical
thread that will be so brilliant
I have never said or implied that I have some great philosophical thread in me. I have said I don't consider myself a philosopher. Nor do I consider most people here philosophers, at least going by their posts. We seem to be people interested in philosophy.
It's you who have as your goal to be the best philosopher ever. You have made other very bloated proclamations about your ability, and compared yourself positively with philosophers like Wittgenstein,e tc.

I certainly have made philosophical posts. I don't just criticize. And as you've admitted yourself, you don't read much other than your own posts.

I end this post answering your main question. There you'll find some philosophical thinking. Interact with that if you want.
that I Kropotkin will be ashamed
to write philosophy ever again,
Never suggested that. But if that's what you think I was somehow saying, it explains some of your unwillingness to actually discuss things with me and others.
while we wait..
I thought I should engage with my sad and pathetic philosophy,
at least according to Iwanna....
It's your writing, not your philosophy. Not that these can be separated completely. I don't think you are a clear writer. I don't think you follow through, but rather ramble around. You've gotten this criticism from many others. Philosophy is a form of communication. Classic philosophers, like the ones you positively compare yourself to, can be tricky to read. However that trickiness comes from the density of new concepts. I don't see that in your work. I have also seen how if I disagree with your generalizations about conservatives (or liberal/lefties for that matter) you have generally assumed I am on the right. It has seemed so ingrained in you that there are two teams any criticism is either betrayal or identifies you as the enemy. I think that's also problematic.
what is the point of being human, what goal should we and ought
we to pursue? that is the question....
A long time ago I thought there might be answers to this that were universal.
Note that the way the question is framed, a universal and single answer is presumed. Not only that, the answer, whatever it is, is a moral good answer. Universally and perhaps also objectively good.

When I look around at other humans, I see a variety of senses of what the point is, for them, and in general?
I see people who want to be in and thrive in very different societies/subgroups.

We are often told, in one for or another, that really, deep down, we are all the same, somehow.

But I see people who truly love things I want no part of: I can psychoanalyze them. Presume to know that really deep down, they want what I want, but that model seems less accurate to me.

The model that we are in fact fundmentally diverse seems vastly more likely to me.

Some people seem to thrive is harsh competition and even high levels of aggression. I don't mean they like competing a lot and being aggessive. I mean, they like it when others are like this, even in competition with them.

I do like competition, for example in sports, though there are limits. And I don't want the bulk of my relations to have competition and aggression as core componants. I'd probably have been happier in Athens than Sparta.

Now I could view all the people who'd rather be in Sparta as not really knowing themselves. That seep down they really want what I want. But I see no reason to assume this anymore.

If, PK, you think we really do all have, deep down, the same goal or should, what is that goal and how do you know this?

There I took a position, perhaps in contrast to yours. I say 'perhaps' because I responded to what seems implicit in your question, coupled with your 'we' speak. It seems like you think we all have the same goal or should.

I am not the best philosopher in the world and Wittgensteing, Nietschze...I am not their peer. But here I described my position, in very general terms.

If you'd like to interact with it, let's see what happens.
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Harbal
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Harbal »

Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:21 am

I can't say for sure if Harbal was reacting to your use of 'we' this way,
Well I knew that I wasn't a member of this "we" in which he seemed to be including me, and I just wondered how many others weren't.
Iwannaplato
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Re: seeking meaning and purpose

Post by Iwannaplato »

Harbal wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:58 am
Iwannaplato wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:21 am

I can't say for sure if Harbal was reacting to your use of 'we' this way,
Well I knew that I wasn't a member of this "we" in which he seemed to be including me, and I just wondered how many others weren't.
I've long been wary of the 'we' used by strangers - politicians, anyone - to include me and people in general. It's often used to say what we feel and want, but at other times, as PK did, to implicitly put us on the same team or make us the same kind of creatures. It's always seemed like a kind of power move, at least with politicians, and then a kind of (possibly unaware) hypnosis: yeah, we're all the same, my taste is everyone's, follow me, don't notice yourself......
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