Does It Matter Whether God Exists or Not?

[seeds]

I have justified;
God is an Impossibility [to be Real]
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

First of all, little V (and for the umpteenth x umpteenth time), the premise you attempted to establish in that thread was debunked and laid to rest here: viewtopic.php?p=368433#p368433
...and here:
viewtopic.php?p=369067&sid=841310525c83 ... 01#p369067
...and here:
viewtopic.php?p=543781#p543781

Indeed, how many times can you exhume and then beat a poor dead horse before it turns into a cloud of dried-up tissue fragments and pulverized bones?

Since theism is driven by inherent cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis, where the latter cannot be got rid of, the viable solution is to wean off theism with alternative FOOLPROOF solutions to replace theism.

There is no "cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis."

No, little V, there is simply the inherent common-sense conclusion that the unfathomable order of the universe could not possibly have been a product of the blind and mindless processes of chance.

And that (for the most part) is what drives the perpetuation of theism, for it leads to the logical assumption that something vastly intelligent must be behind it all.

Furthermore, because the gift of life is such an amazing and mysterious phenomenon that holds the potential for unimaginable beauty and infinite possibilities in some higher context of reality,...

...then, sure, almost everyone hopes that life will continue on in that higher context.

However, for you to translate that "hope" as being some sort of "existential crisis" that prevents humans from accepting (as you have done) the ridiculous chance hypothesis,...

...is simply a demonstration of the fact that just as a fly or a mouse do not possess the mental wherewithal to understand that they function on an ascending ladder of consciousness that consists of rungs that extend higher than their own rungs (such as the dog's rung, for example, or the even higher human rung),...

...likewise, many humans (such as yourself), because of their position on the ladder, simply do not possess the mental wherewithal to fathom the existence of a rung above their own rung.

In other words, and this will no doubt come as a shock to your enormous ego, but humans do not occupy the top rung of the ascending ladder of consciousness.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you are going to insist that everything I suggested above was driven by a "...cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis..."

To which I, in our perennial war of opposing views, will insist that you simply aren't awake enough (not high enough on the ladder) to comprehend where I am coming from.

Anyway, regardless of which of us (or neither of us) is on the right track, I wonder which one of our particular outlooks on reality would be the most appealing to most humans?

Would it be my suggestion that, no matter what any of us have done or believed while on earth, life holds a huge surprise for each of us that is so amazing and so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely?

...Or...

Would it be your suggestion that life holds no ultimate purpose for us as individuals, and is therefore meaningless in that the only thing we have to look forward to is eternal oblivion?
_______

[Veritas Aequitas]

I have justified;
God is an Impossibility [to be Real]
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=24704

First of all, little V (and for the umpteenth x umpteenth time), the premise you attempted to establish in that thread was debunked and laid to rest here: viewtopic.php?p=368433#p368433
...and here:
viewtopic.php?p=369067&sid=841310525c83 ... 01#p369067
...and here:
viewtopic.php?p=543781#p543781

Indeed, how many times can you exhume and then beat a poor dead horse before it turns into a cloud of dried-up tissue fragments and pulverized bones?

There were many other posts that continued from the last one above pg. 33 wherein I countered all your points till page 35 or so.

You may deny your panenthestic God is perfect, but notel

• Thus, God is larger than but also like the persons we know: physically embodied in a finite material object, growing older through time and changing as his material parts change.
  Panentheists claim that even so, God is perfect, because persons are the acme of perfection.
  https://www.rep.routledge.com/articles/ ... anentheism

Here;s ChatGPT''s answer;

Panentheism is a theological and philosophical concept that posits that the divine, often referred to as God, is both immanent within the universe and transcendent beyond it. In panentheism, God is seen as encompassing and permeating all of reality while also transcending it.

Whether panentheism holds that God is perfect and absolutely perfect can vary depending on the specific beliefs and interpretations of individuals or religious traditions that subscribe to panentheistic views.

In some versions of panentheism, God is considered to be perfect, possessing all positive attributes and lacking any flaws or limitations. This perspective emphasizes the notion of God's perfection as a central tenet.

However, it's important to note that panentheism encompasses a wide range of beliefs and interpretations, and different panentheistic thinkers may hold diverse views regarding the nature and perfection of God. Some may emphasize God's perfection, while others may approach the concept differently, acknowledging that God's nature may go beyond human comprehension and cannot be fully encapsulated by human language or concepts of perfection.

Where panentheists believe God's nature may go beyond human comprehension, it in this case impossible to be real [empirical] to humans.

If you insist your panentheistic personal God is none of the above, i.e. not perfect, not absolutely perfect, not beyond human comprehension, then your panentheistic personal God is an inferior God to the above, i.e. a shit kind of God.
If not, prove your God is worthwhile to be worship by any other panentheist?

Since theism is driven by inherent cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis, where the latter cannot be got rid of, the viable solution is to wean off theism with alternative FOOLPROOF solutions to replace theism.

There is no "cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis."

No, little V, there is simply the inherent common-sense conclusion that the unfathomable order of the universe could not possibly have been a product of the blind and mindless processes of chance.

And that (for the most part) is what drives the perpetuation of theism, for it leads to the logical assumption that something vastly intelligent must be behind it all.

Furthermore, because the gift of life is such an amazing and mysterious phenomenon that holds the potential for unimaginable beauty and infinite possibilities in some higher context of reality,...

...then, sure, almost everyone hopes that life will continue on in that higher context.

However, for you to translate that "hope" as being some sort of "existential crisis" that prevents humans from accepting (as you have done) the ridiculous chance hypothesis,...

...is simply a demonstration of the fact that just as a fly or a mouse do not possess the mental wherewithal to understand that they function on an ascending ladder of consciousness that consists of rungs that extend higher than their own rungs (such as the dog's rung, for example, or the even higher human rung),...

...likewise, many humans (such as yourself), because of their position on the ladder, simply do not possess the mental wherewithal to fathom the existence of a rung above their own rung.

In other words, and this will no doubt come as a shock to your enormous ego, but humans do not occupy the top rung of the ascending ladder of consciousness.

Yeah, yeah, I know, you are going to insist that everything I suggested above was driven by a "...cognitive dissonance arising from an existential crisis..."

To which I, in our perennial war of opposing views, will insist that you simply aren't awake enough (not high enough on the ladder) to comprehend where I am coming from.

Anyway, regardless of which of us (or neither of us) is on the right track, I wonder which one of our particular outlooks on reality would be the most appealing to most humans?

Would it be my suggestion that, no matter what any of us have done or believed while on earth, life holds a huge surprise for each of us that is so amazing and so wonderful that it must be kept hidden from us until death so that we are not tempted to seek it out prematurely?

...Or...

Would it be your suggestion that life holds no ultimate purpose for us as individuals, and is therefore meaningless in that the only thing we have to look forward to is eternal oblivion?
_______

Little V?? your put-down is a manifestation and sign of your subliminal fears arising from that cognitive dissonance. If you are solidly confident your god exists as real, you would not resort to such childish [typical in school yards] thinking.

Let say, you [& other panentheists of your like] give up the belief in a panentheistic God and I can assure you humanity will continue to progress as it had been.
The only difference when you give up panentheism is only that you are losing your security blanket and facing the cognitive dissonances therefrom.

When all theists give up their theism and there is a significant increase in the average moral competence, humanity will progress more expeditiously.

Note my improved argument re why god is impossible to be real [empirically].

What is real, facts, truths, knowledge and objectivity are conditioned upon a specific human based FSR-FSK, of which the human-based scientific-FSK [empirically-based] is the most reliable, credible and objective.

i. All humans are programmed with an innate unavoidable existential crisis that generate terrible primal cognitive dissonance.
ii. The critical task for all humans is to soothe the cognitive dissonances.
iii. For theists [all types], the only balm to soothe the cognitive dissonance is an absolutely perfect God.

ETA:
P1. For all theists [monotheism], God must be absolutely perfect to be real,
P2. But, Absolute perfection is impossible to be real
C1. Therefore it is impossible for God to be real.

P1 does not apply to polytheists, pagans, and the like who believe in all sort of gods which cannot have the attribute of absolute perfection.

[Iwannaplato]

Where panentheists believe God's nature may go beyond human comprehension, it in this case impossible to be real [empirical] to humans.

To think that something may go beyond our comprehension means that something cannot exist. Wow. That means you have to be absolutely sure humans will someday know everything about subatomic particles, the human brain, consciousness.....or these things do not exist.

P1. For all theists, God must be absolutely perfect to be real,

Demonstrably false in practice. Many theists have had deities that were not perfect, let alone absolutely perfect. Demonstrable in theory also since scripture and myths includes weaknesses and lack of absolute perfection in deities. This premise is false.

P2. But, Absolute perfection is impossible to be real

I don't think that's a meaningful sentence. Perfection is a value judgment. So, whose value judgment? and in what context?

[Veritas Aequitas]

Does It Matter Whether God Exists or Not?

Obviously whether god exists or not, do matter to theists who are clinging to God like a drowning person clinging to a twig.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

Whilst there had been some utilities from theism in the past and remnants at present;

Does theism matter to the whole of humanity in the future?
If we ignore the above, humanity can still progress perhaps more efficiently because the belief in God is like a stone on a chain tied to the individual's leg.

The Enlightenment blossomed with the cutting away of the above chain of theism and had contributed to humanity's progress to the present.
With theism totally weaned off in the future, humanity will be able to progress more expeditiously in terms of knowledge, technology, morality thus contributing to greater well being for the individuals.

[Veritas Aequitas]

Does It Matter Whether God Exists or Not?
viewtopic.php?t=40161

Obviously whether god exists or not, do matter to theists who are clinging to God like a drowning person clinging to a twig.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

You have no idea about God as with ALL atheists..and you likely will never know.
I know with 99.9999999% certainty it exists and we are indeed in a God system.

This ridiculous argument of yours can play two ways (for atheists and theists):- ".. to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis."

Imagine burning in HELL forever, maybe that's why atheists cling to their hope that there is NOT a God, since they know what sins they have committed.

It is fundamental to why theists belief in a God, i.e.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

It may not be explicit to you, but the above impulses are exuding within theists subliminally.

I don't deny non-theists [as with all humans] are also subjected to the very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
It is just that they do not run to a God but rely on other secular approaches to relieve the terrible pains in various ways which could be positive or detrimental to themselves, e.g. drugs, opioids, etc.

[attofishpi]

Does It Matter Whether God Exists or Not?
viewtopic.php?t=40161

Obviously whether god exists or not, do matter to theists who are clinging to God like a drowning person clinging to a twig.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

You have no idea about God as with ALL atheists..and you likely will never know.
I know with 99.9999999% certainty it exists and we are indeed in a God system.

This ridiculous argument of yours can play two ways (for atheists and theists):- ".. to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis."

Imagine burning in HELL forever, maybe that's why atheists cling to their hope that there is NOT a God, since they know what sins they have committed.

It is fundamental to why theists belief in a God, i.e.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

It may not be explicit to you, but the above impulses are exuding within theists subliminally.

I don't deny non-theists are also subjected very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
It is just that they not run to a God but rely on other secular approach to relieve the terrible pains in various ways which could be positive or detrimental to themselves, e.g. drugs, opioids, etc. to relieve the pains.

You fail to see the flaw in your argument. Theism soothes nothing when considering HELL ffs.

From my experience of God, I do hope I never have to run the gauntlet of the TESTS again, if that means being dead for the rest of eternity, then I will take that option.

[Veritas Aequitas]

You have no idea about God as with ALL atheists..and you likely will never know.
I know with 99.9999999% certainty it exists and we are indeed in a God system.

This ridiculous argument of yours can play two ways (for atheists and theists):- ".. to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis."

Imagine burning in HELL forever, maybe that's why atheists cling to their hope that there is NOT a God, since they know what sins they have committed.

It is fundamental to why theists belief in a God, i.e.
God matters to theists as a balm to soothe their very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.

It may not be explicit to you, but the above impulses are exuding within theists subliminally.

I don't deny non-theists are also subjected very painful cognitive dissonances arising from an inherent unavoidable existential crisis.
It is just that they not run to a God but rely on other secular approach to relieve the terrible pains in various ways which could be positive or detrimental to themselves, e.g. drugs, opioids, etc. to relieve the pains.

You fail to see the flaw in your argument. Theism soothes nothing when considering HELL ffs.

From my experience of God, I do hope I never have to run the gauntlet of the TESTS again, if that means being dead for the rest of eternity, then I will take that option.

ffs. The threat of Hell and hellfire allude to terrible pains, thus if God can save one to eternal life and away from Hell, that would surely matter.
Btw, the idea of Hell is fiction, it is actually related to the manifestation of the terrible pains of cognitive dissonances.

Unless you do deep reflective thinking you are unlikely to reconcile the real terrible pains from cognitive dissonances to theism.

[attofishpi]

U really should not mistake me for someone who cares what U think...chump.

[popeye1945]

"Time for humanity to grow up." Albert Einstein. Praise be to Allah---lol!! or I'll kill you!!!

[Iwannaplato]

Does it matter if God exists?
To whom?

[promethean75]

I attempt to prove the impossibility of god by the disingenuous nature of repentance argument (the DNRA argument) which i just made up.

If the killer becomes a killer thinking in advance that he might in the future stop killing and become a christian, and actually does stop killing and becomes a christian after losing the interest in killing (not becuz of getting caught), there's a kind of post-hoc fraud going on becuz the killer remembers his reasoning before he began killing and can't help but believe he did precisely that; plan the whole thing.

By virtue of this he'll never convince himself that his turn to Christianity was authentic and not another ploy. Even in his most christian moments when god is watching him for authenticity, they both remember and know he'll never be able to feel like he isn't acting.

Bro I just dropped some Kierkegaard level shit dint I? Think about what I'm sayin tho. This is an element in human existence that is really quite absurd. Remember Harris, Sam saying how Christianity is a religion that a serial killer can be absolved by and live eternal life in heaven after a single meal of fried chicken and an hour with a pastor before execution. Why that's just plain ridiculous.

[Wizard22]

It matters whether God exists or not in the same way that it matters whether some groups of or individual Men, have access and authority to use force and deadly violence to carry out their political ambitions and impose the collective will of nations.

Most people Obey, readily, willingly, without resistance. Those who are Resistant, are a special breed, types of men that cannot be easily constrained...whether by persuasive arguments, emotional appeals, and/or those who cannot be so easily intimidated.