Philosophy Now Forum

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

It would be a shame if it they were to ask such questions. It will take them way longer than it took us humans (+-2500 years) to figure out that questions of identity are meaningless.

What we are is undecidable.

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:03 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

It would be a shame if it they were to ask such questions. It will take them way longer than it took us humans (+-2500 years) to figure out that questions of identity are meaningless.

What we are is undecidable.

We can learn a lot from them. Within reason, of course.

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:08 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:03 am

Skepdick wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:00 am
It would be a shame if it they were to ask such questions. It will take them way longer than it took us humans (+-2500 years) to figure out that questions of identity are meaningless.

What we are is undecidable.

We can learn a lot from them. Within reason, of course.

Yep. We sure had to fail a lot at arriving at any satisfactory answers about who we are before we even bothered to ask whether there is a problem with the question.

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:16 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

Probably.

This thread today you just created is so similar to a thread I have been thinking about creating.

But only about dogs (I'm not familiar with cats, but I hear good things

My best friend, Donnie, is 4 and we hang out all day together. Yesterday he convinced me while I was working on the compooter to take him for a walk. I needed to get to the shops and was considering the car was a wise move.
Well, it had been raining all morning, but it then stopped. Donnie decided it was time for some fresh air, so he started nudging my arms as I continue to - attempt to - tap away at the keys, until I caved and thought yep, we can go thru the park, and then get to the shops.
Well, we got drenched on the way back from the shops! I get his towel and dry him off as much as possible before letting him inside. BUT, this is the important part - I put a little squeezy piggy toy that always freaked him out, so he keeps away from it, and the ball slinger thingy on the couch, so soggy dog Donnie, doesn't mess up the couch! He's got a little rug he can dry off on.

..anyway, the thread I want and probably will create is not so much about your question title.

I TRULY attempt to teach English to my dog mostly about objects, "there's piggy!", "there's ball" etc..

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

Dontaskme wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:31 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

And that's what in my opinion makes animals luckier than humans, they don't take offence to being called all sorts of derogatory names.

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:27 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:16 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 6:52 am They live around humans all the time, but do they ever wonder why they are different to us? Has any of them, even a single individual, ever had the self-awareness to do so? I suppose we can never really know, but we can speculate, based on our very long and thorough experience of them. And my answer is, no, such a question probably never even crosses their minds. And this, I think, is probably a very good thing, from their point of view.

Probably.

This thread today you just created is so similar to a thread I have been thinking about creating.

But only about dogs (I'm not familiar with cats, but I hear good things

My best friend, Donnie, is 4 and we hang out all day together. Yesterday he convinced me while I was working on the compooter to take him for a walk. I needed to get to the shops and was considering the car was a wise move.
Well, it had been raining all morning, but it then stopped. Donnie decided it was time for some fresh air, so he started nudging my arms as I continue to - attempt to - tap away at the keys, until I caved and thought yep, we can go thru the park, and then get to the shops.
Well, we got drenched on the way back from the shops! I get his towel and dry him off as much as possible before letting him inside. BUT, this is the important part - I put a little squeezy piggy toy that always freaked him out, so he keeps away from it, and the ball slinger thingy on the couch, so soggy dog Donnie, doesn't mess up the couch! He's got a little rug he can dry off on.

..anyway, the thread I want and probably will create is not so much about your question title.

I TRULY attempt to teach English to my dog mostly about objects, "there's piggy!", "there's ball" etc..

He sounds lovely, and so cute. I'm more familiar with cats than dogs, and although I don't have one myself, my parents do, and always have, and I grew up with them. I'm also quite familiar with service dogs, though again, have never owned one, but I know how intelligent they can be, both on an emotional and very practical level. And dogs, in particular, are quite capable of learning a whole range of words and commands. Less so with cats, admittedly, but both cats and dogs are very quick indeed to pick up on moods and atmosphere, and there is never any difficulty in communicating ones intentions to them, nor indeed, vice versa.

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:37 am

Maia wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:27 am

attofishpi wrote: ↑Tue May 30, 2023 7:16 am

Probably.

This thread today you just created is so similar to a thread I have been thinking about creating.

But only about dogs (I'm not familiar with cats, but I hear good things

My best friend, Donnie, is 4 and we hang out all day together. Yesterday he convinced me while I was working on the compooter to take him for a walk. I needed to get to the shops and was considering the car was a wise move.
Well, it had been raining all morning, but it then stopped. Donnie decided it was time for some fresh air, so he started nudging my arms as I continue to - attempt to - tap away at the keys, until I caved and thought yep, we can go thru the park, and then get to the shops.
Well, we got drenched on the way back from the shops! I get his towel and dry him off as much as possible before letting him inside. BUT, this is the important part - I put a little squeezy piggy toy that always freaked him out, so he keeps away from it, and the ball slinger thingy on the couch, so soggy dog Donnie, doesn't mess up the couch! He's got a little rug he can dry off on.

..anyway, the thread I want and probably will create is not so much about your question title.

I TRULY attempt to teach English to my dog mostly about objects, "there's piggy!", "there's ball" etc..

He sounds lovely, and so cute. I'm more familiar with cats than dogs, and although I don't have one myself, my parents do, and always have, and I grew up with them. I'm also quite familiar with service dogs, though again, have never owned one, but I know how intelligent they can be, both on an emotional and very practical level. And dogs, in particular, are quite capable of learning a whole range of words and commands. Less so with cats, admittedly, but both cats and dogs are very quick indeed to pick up on moods and atmosphere, and there is never any difficulty in communicating ones intentions to them, nor indeed, vice versa.

Yes, and it puzzles me so often because I know Donnie is intelligent and sentient - (it's a puzzle as to how they think!) We think mostly with our words within our heads.

Donnie is 75% Golden Retriever - the rest Border Collie - two very intelligent breeds. I rarely bother with a lead for him unless near busy roads. Where we live there are 3 main different walks into nature I can take him on so he is off the lead most of the time. If I tell him to stop\wait he does
and the I say "ok\go on" - no problem - so joggers, people on bikes etc well, they appreciate it.