Decline of the West???

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:18 pm But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Braille is derived from the Latin alphabet. But then the Latin alphabet was derived from the Etruscan, which in turn was derived from the Greek.
I think she's correct that she doesn't use Latin alphabet and as one who can wield the Latin alphabet with decent skill, I am utterly lost when not-managing to use Braille.
Braille is derived from the Latin alphabet, albeit indirectly. In Braille's original system, the dot patterns were assigned to letters according to their position within the alphabetic order of the French alphabet of the time, with accented letters and w sorted at the end.[11]
And if you keep reading in Wikipedia you can find out more about that 'one step removed' and how we end up with something quite different, (that's there's a progressions logic in the signs, for example) and how this 'one step' leads to it being different in quality and, as said, utterly unusable by the Braille illiterate.
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:15 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:18 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:48 pm

My screenreader reads the Latin alphabet and Arabic numbers and then converts them into speech for me. I don't read them myself. When I write, that is, when I type, I press the appropriate keys which are then converted into the Latin alphabet or Arabic numbers, but again, I don't actually write them myself.

A fine distinction, perhaps, but in a discussion about the actual letters, as opposed to the sounds they represent, a relevant one, I think.
I see. (no pun intended)
But not relevant to, and rather digressive to the current debate.
But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Well, as I said, when I think of the printed word, I think of Braille. I don't think it's true to say that I use the Latin alphabet at all in any meaningful sense, and I certainly don't think in it. I can sign my name, and that's about it, though I can't vouch for its legibility.

The point is that English can be, and is, written in scripts other than the Latin alphabet, which has no intrinsic connection to the spoken word.
Braille is an extension of the Latin Alphabet? Yes or no?
English is written in Braile and Latin. And you might want to try to write it in Cyrillic or Runes, it is not commonly done, and can be very clumsy. I often make an inscription in Runes on my sculpture, so yes it is possible, but again not especially relevant to the mad point Wizard is trying to make.
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Iwannaplato wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 am
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:18 pm But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Braille is derived from the Latin alphabet. But then the Latin alphabet was derived from the Etruscan, which in turn was derived from the Greek.
I think she's correct that she doesn't use Latin alphabet and as one who can wield the Latin alphabet with decent skill, I am utterly lost when not-managing to use Braille.
Yes, true but this is way off relevance of the thread.
Braille is derived from the Latin alphabet, albeit indirectly. In Braille's original system, the dot patterns were assigned to letters according to their position within the alphabetic order of the French alphabet of the time, with accented letters and w sorted at the end.[11]
And if you keep reading in Wikipedia you can find out more about that 'one step removed' and how we end up with something quite different, (that's there's a progressions logic in the signs, for example) and how this 'one step' leads to it being different in quality and, as said, utterly unusable by the Braille illiterate.
How do you think this adds to the discussion with Wizard, if at all?
He was trying to make a point that English is influenced by Latin script and by Greek and Latin language, whilst ignoring the fact that English is a Germanic language.

My view is that generally, the praxis of communication is the driving force and that language acquires words that are useful and relevant to usage. Praxis demands functionality and does not respect arbitrary roots. Show me a person that persists in trying to demand meaning from etymology and I will show you a person who has missed the point.
Meanings change.
Linguistic change is influenced to some degree by the concepts. But it would be a mistake to think that, say a word like Biology was due to a Greek influence. The usage has no history in ancient Greek but was chosen by people studying the natural science of living things. The relationship between the signifier and the signified is arbitrary. 19thC science through necessity chose a neologism from Bios-Logos, and this owes nothing to ancient Greek thinkers.

The compound was suggested 1802 by German naturalist Gottfried Reinhold Treviranus.

Though Aristotle did think about the science of living things, and has basically nothing to contribute. He certainly did not use the term.
It is interesting to note that after Darwin had formulated his complete theory he referenced, with some surprise, remarks made by Aristotle which may have, if pursued formally, led to a theory of natural selection, but there was a massive hiatus through the Christian period of any such science serious enough to have influenced Darwin.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:32 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:15 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:18 pm
I see. (no pun intended)
But not relevant to, and rather digressive to the current debate.
But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Well, as I said, when I think of the printed word, I think of Braille. I don't think it's true to say that I use the Latin alphabet at all in any meaningful sense, and I certainly don't think in it. I can sign my name, and that's about it, though I can't vouch for its legibility.

The point is that English can be, and is, written in scripts other than the Latin alphabet, which has no intrinsic connection to the spoken word.
Braille is an extension of the Latin Alphabet? Yes or no?
English is written in Braile and Latin. And you might want to try to write it in Cyrillic or Runes, it is not commonly done, and can be very clumsy. I often make an inscription in Runes on my sculpture, so yes it is possible, but again not especially relevant to the mad point Wizard is trying to make.
The answer to that is, yes and no. It has some very different rules of its own. But even if it was just a transliteration of the Latin alphabet, which it isn't, using Braille would still not constitute using the Latin alphabet.
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:38 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:32 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 11:15 pm

Well, as I said, when I think of the printed word, I think of Braille. I don't think it's true to say that I use the Latin alphabet at all in any meaningful sense, and I certainly don't think in it. I can sign my name, and that's about it, though I can't vouch for its legibility.

The point is that English can be, and is, written in scripts other than the Latin alphabet, which has no intrinsic connection to the spoken word.
Braille is an extension of the Latin Alphabet? Yes or no?
English is written in Braile and Latin. And you might want to try to write it in Cyrillic or Runes, it is not commonly done, and can be very clumsy. I often make an inscription in Runes on my sculpture, so yes it is possible, but again not especially relevant to the mad point Wizard is trying to make.
The answer to that is, yes and no. It has some very different rules of its own. But even if it was just a transliteration of the Latin alphabet, which it isn't, using Braille would still not constitute using the Latin alphabet.
I'm guessing that every book you read originated in Latin.
Everything you communicate here on the Forum is shown in Latin.
But it could be written in Runic, Dwarven, Elfish, or even Etruscan, Greek and Phoenician though with a bit of juggling.
And this leads us to the point which contributes to refute Wizard's point about the Greco/Roman world having some sort of super influences.
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:00 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:38 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 12:32 pm

Braille is an extension of the Latin Alphabet? Yes or no?
English is written in Braile and Latin. And you might want to try to write it in Cyrillic or Runes, it is not commonly done, and can be very clumsy. I often make an inscription in Runes on my sculpture, so yes it is possible, but again not especially relevant to the mad point Wizard is trying to make.
The answer to that is, yes and no. It has some very different rules of its own. But even if it was just a transliteration of the Latin alphabet, which it isn't, using Braille would still not constitute using the Latin alphabet.
I'm guessing that every book you read originated in Latin.
Everything you communicate here on the Forum is shown in Latin.
But it could be written in Runic, Dwarven, Elfish, or even Etruscan, Greek and Phoenician though with a bit of juggling.
And this leads us to the point which contributes to refute Wizard's point about the Greco/Roman world having some sort of super influences.
Whatever the books originated in, I didn't read them in the Latin alphabet.

Wizard didn't actually say that, though. If he had, he would have been correct. Western civilisation originated with the Greeks so it's hardly surprising that Graeco-Roman influence is all over the place.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:05 pmIt's like you are struggling with basic English comprehension or something.

Through the lens of systems theory any number of entities interacting makes a system. 8 billion people on Earth interacting makes up the system called "society".

It's not an argument - it's a trivial implication of the definition.
I think you should admit that "The West" and "The East" are two different societies. Or The Poor, vs The Rich. Or one Country, vs another Country.

Skepdick wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:05 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm Read this thread and other peoples' opinions again.
I am not going to explain weight of evidence to you again.
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm I asked a question. Most agree that the West is in decline. You have not proved that it is not.
So you are defaulting to a bandwagon fallacy and you want me to prove a negative?

OK then...
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm Because large societies associate as such. Much of it is political, like the US-NATO alliance, or WEF operating securely in the United States and representing most US corporations.
Russia and China are large countries. Nigeria are large countries. You aren't really addressing the question.
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm It depends on what being poor is like in both circumstances. It might be worse now.
It seems philosophy has become nothing other than abusing Cunningham's law...
Maybe this will change your mind, consider watching this video:

Liberals PANIC As Illegal Immigrants Will Be Placed IN THEIR HOMES, Democrat Policy BACKFIRES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHUrducvK8


Also consider that the United States from 2016 to Now, has a huge social-cultural-political movement called "Make America Great Again". Meaning America, The West, was great before, but is not now. Obviously this is a huge influence in The West, USA, Latin America, NATO, Ukraine, etc. So when was America "great but not now"? What do you think?

By your arguments so far, I presume you think they're wrong?
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:38 pm I think you should admit that "The West" and "The East" are two different societies. Or The Poor, vs The Rich. Or one Country, vs another Country.
What is there to admit? It's just a word. You can call them "two societies"; or you can call them "two parts of the same society".

If you want the word "society" so badly - have it.

The West and The East are interacting - they are still one system.

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:38 pm Maybe this will change your mind, consider watching this video:

Liberals PANIC As Illegal Immigrants Will Be Placed IN THEIR HOMES, Democrat Policy BACKFIRES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHUrducvK8


Also consider that the United States from 2016 to Now, has a huge social-cultural-political movement called "Make America Great Again". Meaning America, The West, was great before, but is not now. Obviously this is a huge influence in The West, USA, Latin America, NATO, Ukraine, etc. So when was America "great but not now"? What do you think?

By your arguments so far, I presume you think they're wrong?
I don't think in terms of "right" and "wrong" - I prefer looking at the whole picture rather than focused case studies.

I think it's possible that The West is not in decline AND people's complaints are true. You simply don't seem to understand how evidence works.

Localized issues exist and have always existed. Nobody is saying otherwise. But there's more to The West than those cherry-picked social challenges. Those come and go.

The general trend of progress continues.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:45 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:38 pm I think you should admit that "The West" and "The East" are two different societies. Or The Poor, vs The Rich. Or one Country, vs another Country.
What is there to admit? It's just a word. You can call them "two societies"; or you can call them "two parts of the same society".

If you want the word "society" so badly - have it.

The West and The East are interacting - they are still one system.

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:38 pm Maybe this will change your mind, consider watching this video:

Liberals PANIC As Illegal Immigrants Will Be Placed IN THEIR HOMES, Democrat Policy BACKFIRES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rHUrducvK8


Also consider that the United States from 2016 to Now, has a huge social-cultural-political movement called "Make America Great Again". Meaning America, The West, was great before, but is not now. Obviously this is a huge influence in The West, USA, Latin America, NATO, Ukraine, etc. So when was America "great but not now"? What do you think?

By your arguments so far, I presume you think they're wrong?
I don't think in terms of "right" and "wrong" - I prefer looking at the whole picture rather than focused case studies.

I think it's possible that The West is not in decline AND people's complaints are true. You simply don't seem to understand how evidence works.

Localized issues exist and have always existed. Nobody is saying otherwise. But there's more to The West than those cherry-picked social challenges. Those come and go.

The general trend of progress continues.
The "Progressives" in the United States want young children to "affirm their gender" which sometimes involves genital mutilation/castration.

Do you consider this "Progress", or Regress perhaps?

Who's telling the truth, you or them?
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:00 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:38 pm

The answer to that is, yes and no. It has some very different rules of its own. But even if it was just a transliteration of the Latin alphabet, which it isn't, using Braille would still not constitute using the Latin alphabet.
I'm guessing that every book you read originated in Latin.
Everything you communicate here on the Forum is shown in Latin.
But it could be written in Runic, Dwarven, Elfish, or even Etruscan, Greek and Phoenician though with a bit of juggling.
And this leads us to the point which contributes to refute Wizard's point about the Greco/Roman world having some sort of super influences.
Whatever the books originated in, I didn't read them in the Latin alphabet.

Wizard didn't actually say that, though. If he had, he would have been correct. Western civilisation originated with the Greeks so it's hardly surprising that Graeco-Roman influence is all over the place.
I think this sub thread is dead.
The idea that "Western civilization" originated with the Greeks is nothing more than a historical meta-narritive. A very modern idea. You could as easily argue that the majority of cultural influences were Jewish, from the Old Testament. And that had a massive negative effect on the pre-christian institutions of assembly
There is not even a continuous thread back to ancient Greece.
There was a complete hiatus, whilst civilization in the West continued without any reference to Greece.
And when the Renaissance happened it, the interest was in Etruscan art, none even realized that the statues of Venus atc, and even come from Greece.
Political institutions of European countries own nothing to Greece, since they emerged from the institutions of the Germanic tribes in France and England, and all too obviously in Germany. Vestiges of early democratic leanings can still be found in Iceland where they still have the Althing. Christianity brought the worst type of Kingship that crushed those early Germanic natural democracies, and the Greek version was only discovered from the Arabs who had preserved the ancient scholarship.
Our culture is still Germanic
Skepdick
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:01 pm The "Progressives" in the United States want young children to "affirm their gender" which sometimes involves genital mutilation/castration.

Do you consider this "Progress", or Regress perhaps?

Who's telling the truth, you or them?
Democratic People's Republic of Korea has the word "democratic" in it too - do you think they are a democratic country?

I am pointing at progress, not people who self-identify as progressives.

The particular words don't matter - what I am pointing at matters. That's why I am intentionally side-stepping identity politics. It's a really stupid language game.
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iambiguous
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by iambiguous »

Okay, now I get it. Wizard is Satyr!

Let the decline of the West begin!! :shock:
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:28 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:41 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:00 pm

I'm guessing that every book you read originated in Latin.
Everything you communicate here on the Forum is shown in Latin.
But it could be written in Runic, Dwarven, Elfish, or even Etruscan, Greek and Phoenician though with a bit of juggling.
And this leads us to the point which contributes to refute Wizard's point about the Greco/Roman world having some sort of super influences.
Whatever the books originated in, I didn't read them in the Latin alphabet.

Wizard didn't actually say that, though. If he had, he would have been correct. Western civilisation originated with the Greeks so it's hardly surprising that Graeco-Roman influence is all over the place.
I think this sub thread is dead.
The idea that "Western civilization" originated with the Greeks is nothing more than a historical meta-narritive. A very modern idea. You could as easily argue that the majority of cultural influences were Jewish, from the Old Testament. And that had a massive negative effect on the pre-christian institutions of assembly
There is not even a continuous thread back to ancient Greece.
There was a complete hiatus, whilst civilization in the West continued without any reference to Greece.
And when the Renaissance happened it, the interest was in Etruscan art, none even realized that the statues of Venus atc, and even come from Greece.
Political institutions of European countries own nothing to Greece, since they emerged from the institutions of the Germanic tribes in France and England, and all too obviously in Germany. Vestiges of early democratic leanings can still be found in Iceland where they still have the Althing. Christianity brought the worst type of Kingship that crushed those early Germanic natural democracies, and the Greek version was only discovered from the Arabs who had preserved the ancient scholarship.
Our culture is still Germanic
Christianity is, itself, a Greek religion in origin. It may well have a Jewish veneer, but every one of its earliest leaders was either Greek or Greek-speaking, and its foundational texts are written in Greek. Palestine had been part of the Hellenistic world for nearly four centuries when Christianity emerged, as one of many mystery cults in the ancient world. Another such mystery cult, that of Mithras, took Persian mythology as its symbolic structure, even though it too was Greek in origin. Similarly, Christianity took Jewish mythology as its foundational structure, but its Pagan Greek origins are obvious. For example, the eating the body and drinking the blood of their slain and risen god-man, even in symbolic form, would have been the most appalling kind of blasphemy to Jews, yet similar rites crop up in the other mystery cults, too. It may seem odd that a Greek cult would ransack the mythologies of other cultures to use as symbolism, but it's no different to what the Freemasons did in the 18th century and the Wiccans did in the 20th century, and for the same reasons too, to add an air of spurious longevity and exoticism to what they were creating. So there is indeed a continuous thread back to Ancient Greece, provided by the Christian Church itself. But it's not true to say either that Classical heritage was forgotten in Dark Age Western Europe. Scholars such as Bede were fully aware of it.

But as for the rest, yes, I mostly agree. Our democratic institutions originated in Germanic folk assemblies and owe little or nothing to Ancient Greek examples, which had long since withered away under Roman rule.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:22 pm But as for the rest, yes, I mostly agree. Our democratic institutions originated in Germanic folk assemblies and owe little or nothing to Ancient Greek examples, which had long since withered away under Roman rule.
Actually a lot of the ideas in the Enlightenment were influenced by ideas coming out of indigenous 'americans'. And many influential writers mentioned this, but it was dismissed. I mean, how could civilization have been influenced by barbaric pagans. But, in fact, the barbaric indigenous peoples of the americas looked at leadership very differently - you got to be a leader, in many different NA nations through the trust and power given to you by the people and only as long as that lasted. NAs found Europeans extremely weak speakers because they were used to political meetings where all adult members of the tribes could speak and developed skills as speakers. And this can be found in the writings of many Europeans at the time. They agreed with the NAs, they just saw their abilities to speak and individualism and distrust of permanent authority as problematic. But other thinkers, reading these accounts were inspired by these ideas and this spread ideas of nascent democracy and individualism widely through Europe.

A truly wonderful book on this subject is.

https://www.amazon.com/Dawn-Everything- ... 0374157359
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:22 pm
Sculptor wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:28 pm
Maia wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 2:41 pm

Whatever the books originated in, I didn't read them in the Latin alphabet.

Wizard didn't actually say that, though. If he had, he would have been correct. Western civilisation originated with the Greeks so it's hardly surprising that Graeco-Roman influence is all over the place.
I think this sub thread is dead.
The idea that "Western civilization" originated with the Greeks is nothing more than a historical meta-narritive. A very modern idea. You could as easily argue that the majority of cultural influences were Jewish, from the Old Testament. And that had a massive negative effect on the pre-christian institutions of assembly
There is not even a continuous thread back to ancient Greece.
There was a complete hiatus, whilst civilization in the West continued without any reference to Greece.
And when the Renaissance happened it, the interest was in Etruscan art, none even realized that the statues of Venus atc, and even come from Greece.
Political institutions of European countries own nothing to Greece, since they emerged from the institutions of the Germanic tribes in France and England, and all too obviously in Germany. Vestiges of early democratic leanings can still be found in Iceland where they still have the Althing. Christianity brought the worst type of Kingship that crushed those early Germanic natural democracies, and the Greek version was only discovered from the Arabs who had preserved the ancient scholarship.
Our culture is still Germanic
Christianity is, itself, a Greek religion in origin. I
No.
Just because it was written down in Greek does not make it Greek. As well as being half Jewish from the Old Testament it has a wide range of influences.

It's cobbled together from a dozen influences, and our version of it is full of Pagan bollocks.

It may well have a Jewish veneer, but every one of its earliest leaders was either Greek or Greek-speaking, and its foundational texts are written in Greek. Palestine had been part of the Hellenistic world for nearly four centuries when Christianity emerged, as one of many mystery cults in the ancient world. Another such mystery cult, that of Mithras, took Persian mythology as its symbolic structure, even though it too was Greek in origin. Similarly, Christianity took Jewish mythology as its foundational structure, but its Pagan Greek origins are obvious. For example, the eating the body and drinking the blood of their slain and risen god-man, even in symbolic form,
You are just contradicting yourself.
would have been the most appalling kind of blasphemy to Jews, yet similar rites crop up in the other mystery cults, too. It may seem odd that a Greek cult would ransack the mythologies of other cultures to use as symbolism, but it's no different to what the Freemasons did in the 18th century and the Wiccans did in the 20th century, and for the same reasons too, to add an air of spurious longevity and exoticism to what they were creating. So there is indeed a continuous thread back to Ancient Greece, provided by the Christian Church itself. But it's not true to say either that Classical heritage was forgotten in Dark Age Western Europe. Scholars such as Bede were fully aware of it.
What was Bede aware of?

But as for the rest, yes, I mostly agree. Our democratic institutions originated in Germanic folk assemblies and owe little or nothing to Ancient Greek examples, which had long since withered away under Roman rule.
Wrong again.
Although there was an imperial authority, which incidentally was centered in Germany in the late empire, there were still local-based power structures that we know very little about since the only stuff written was about the Senate in Rome.
But in England and France vestiges of Rome were swept away and Germanic power relations replaced control from Rome.

It's pointless to say any thing has a single origin. Nothing does.
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