Decline of the West???

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Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:39 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:26 amIN what ways? How do they behave, what do they do that shows ascent?
In ways that British people admire and emulate the Royal Family.
In ways that black American youfs admire rappers.
In ways that minority girls in America admire Kim Kardashian.
In ways that white girls admire Taylor Swift.
In ways that nerds admire Bill Gates and Elon Musk.
These are signs that civilization is getting better in the West?
Shall I go on?
Sure.
Sometimes, yes I am optimistic. Other times, no I am pessimistic. I try to align my expectations to Reality, not Subjective opinions.
But you thought optimism was the good attitude, context independent.
Quality of Philosophy means many intellectually sharp and logically consistent opponents debating about vital, important topics, along with challenging the status-quo of societies, and Western Civilization in particular. Philosophy should regularly challenge taken-for-granted truths, for example, propaganda of Covid-19 or LGBTQ+ Marxist indoctrination, versus Biological and Virological Reality. This should include the ability to consider the far-left Secular Atheist viewpoint, versus the far-right Abrahamic Religious viewpoint.
People are presenting these positions all over the internet. So, is the situation good?
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmThese are signs that civilization is getting better in the West?
The point was that the masses emulate highly influential individuals as cultural leaders.

Yes and No, depending on the particular cultural leader, they may prove that civilization is rising or falling.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmSure.
You already missed the point.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmBut you thought optimism was the good attitude, context independent.
My personal optimism doesn't mean my society is optimistic.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmPeople are presenting these positions all over the internet. So, is the situation good?
No, the quality of "Philosophy" online has declined severely since 2008.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:17 pmYou do seem to have it in for Jewish people, don't you? I've actually been to Israel, which I'm willing to bet you haven't. We went there for two weeks on a school trip when I was 17. Stayed in Tel Aviv, Eilat, and Jerusalem. Every single person I met was extremely friendly and helpful, and I was particularly impressed with the service in restaurants and other venues. I even got to swim with dolphins. I highly recommend it, if you want a few of your prejudices challenged, but then again, who on earth wants that? It was a bit hot though, I must admit, despite it being January.
Luckily for the Jewish people, I don't think you nor Flash represent them very well.

I like to be neutral with Jews, no Love, no Hate.
Maia
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Location: UK

Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:02 am
Maia wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 2:17 pmYou do seem to have it in for Jewish people, don't you? I've actually been to Israel, which I'm willing to bet you haven't. We went there for two weeks on a school trip when I was 17. Stayed in Tel Aviv, Eilat, and Jerusalem. Every single person I met was extremely friendly and helpful, and I was particularly impressed with the service in restaurants and other venues. I even got to swim with dolphins. I highly recommend it, if you want a few of your prejudices challenged, but then again, who on earth wants that? It was a bit hot though, I must admit, despite it being January.
Luckily for the Jewish people, I don't think you nor Flash represent them very well.

I like to be neutral with Jews, no Love, no Hate.
I don't represent them at all.
Iwannaplato
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:38 am The point was that the masses emulate highly influential individuals as cultural leaders.
So, your list included good and bad influences? Why?
Yes and No, depending on the particular cultural leader, they may prove that civilization is rising or falling.
And the ones on that list?

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmSure.
You already missed the point.
That can happen when someone asks you a question and you answer a different one.

I ask you about what the signs of ascent would be....
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:39 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:26 am
IN what ways? How do they behave, what do they do that shows ascent?
In ways that British people admire and emulate the Royal Family.
In ways that black American youfs admire rappers.
In ways that minority girls in America admire Kim Kardashian.
In ways that white girls admire Taylor Swift.
In ways that nerds admire Bill Gates and Elon Musk.
You make the above list which includes people I am guessing you do not seeing as contributing to ascent.

You explain later that you were answering a different question, about people emulating cultural leaders, for good or for ill.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmBut you thought optimism was the good attitude, context independent.
My personal optimism doesn't mean my society is optimistic.
You personally have both optimism and pessimism, yet earlier you wrote as if only optimism was good.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmPeople are presenting these positions all over the internet. So, is the situation good?
No, the quality of "Philosophy" online has declined severely since 2008.
What was a philosophy forum, back then, that was functioning well? You could link me or I can google my way to it.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:33 amI don't represent them at all.
Except when you slander others for Anti-semitism, immediately proceeded with your case for self-defense, "Don't worry Jewish people, I've been to Israel so *I'm* not Anti-semitic!"

Not exactly a compelling case for your loyalty to Zion, my dear.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:50 am
Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:33 amI don't represent them at all.
Except when you slander others for Anti-semitism, immediately proceeded with your case for self-defense, "Don't worry Jewish people, I've been to Israel so *I'm* not Anti-semitic!"

Not exactly a compelling case for your loyalty to Zion, my dear.
I have no loyalty to Zion and I have no reason to convince anyone of my lack of anti-semitism. I was merely pointing out that you might find it an interesting experience.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:52 amSo, your list included good and bad influences? Why?
Because societies are firstly measured by their Leaders, whether rising or falling.

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:52 amAnd the ones on that list?
This is the point. If your daughter looks up to and adulates Kim Kardashian as a hero, then that's probably a bad sign. Your culture is likely in decay and decline.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmSure.
You already missed the point.
That can happen when someone asks you a question and you answer a different one.

I ask you about what the signs of ascent would be....
Wizard22 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:39 pm
Iwannaplato wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 10:26 am
IN what ways? How do they behave, what do they do that shows ascent?
In ways that British people admire and emulate the Royal Family.
In ways that black American youfs admire rappers.
In ways that minority girls in America admire Kim Kardashian.
In ways that white girls admire Taylor Swift.
In ways that nerds admire Bill Gates and Elon Musk.
You make the above list which includes people I am guessing you do not seeing as contributing to ascent.

You explain later that you were answering a different question, about people emulating cultural leaders, for good or for ill.

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:14 pmBut you thought optimism was the good attitude, context independent.
My personal optimism doesn't mean my society is optimistic.
You personally have both optimism and pessimism, yet earlier you wrote as if only optimism was good.[/quote]
My argument is that general optimism among a populace, tends to demonstrate social-cultural incline, versus pessimism and decline.

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:52 amWhat was a philosophy forum, back then, that was functioning well? You could link me or I can google my way to it.
ilovephilosophy.com

There were a few others, since defunct. I can't remember the name of the science-philosophy forum I used then.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:54 amI have no loyalty to Zion
Anti-Semite! We've got an Anti-Semite here!!

Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:54 amand I have no reason to convince anyone of my lack of anti-semitism. I was merely pointing out that you might find it an interesting experience.
...jokes aside, Israel is one of the last places I'd visit on my vacation list. I'm thinking of Tokyo Japan first. I hear Japanese society is very clean and safe from crime, unlike the United States.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Western Civilization in decline to manage in this thread!
Skepdick
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:56 am This is the point. If your daughter looks up to and adulates Kim Kardashian as a hero, then that's probably a bad sign. Your culture is likely in decay and decline.
If my daughter has half the business acumen Kim Kardashian has - I'd be extatic.

Scratch that. If I had half the business acumen...
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:02 am
Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:54 amI have no loyalty to Zion
Anti-Semite! We've got an Anti-Semite here!!

Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 7:54 amand I have no reason to convince anyone of my lack of anti-semitism. I was merely pointing out that you might find it an interesting experience.
...jokes aside, Israel is one of the last places I'd visit on my vacation list. I'm thinking of Tokyo Japan first. I hear Japanese society is very clean and safe from crime, unlike the United States.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have a Western Civilization in decline to manage in this thread!
Israel is a thoroughly Western society, and doesn't seem to be in decline, either. Perhaps that's the answer, having a common sense of purpose.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:07 pmYeah, right. Successfill societies require time and effort. Show me a society which appeared in an instant with a magic wand.

Societies which didn't have to put in the work to develop culture, knowledge, science, medicine, industry.

And explain to me why the average life expectancy for humans was 35-50 years merely 300 years ago. How did it magically double?
How did we stop dying from dumb shit like sepsis and cholera?
Wizard22 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:45 pm A proud and noble people can be dirt poor, and worth more than a decrepit, corrupt, wealthy society.
And a proud, noble and wealthy society is worth more than both of those togeher.

What's your point?
The point is, noble and wealthy societies tend not to last long across history. This maybe the case for USA, the "American Empire", or "Western Civilization", depending on how these terms are argued and defined.

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:07 pmThe difference which you could only explain by strawmanning me?

I am speaking qualitatively. In the most rational and holistic manner possible taking all the available evidence under consideration. Despite your attempts to peg qualities (such as nobility and wealth) against each other.

You seem to be romanticising about the noble savage.
Wizard22 wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 12:45 pm So it isn't as much about quantity and quality of resources, versus the "reality on the ground".
And the quality of this reality is qualified how?
As I argued to Iwan, it could be as simple as optimism across a population over time. It's complicated.

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:07 pmOK. And? Facing and conquering adversity is precisely what causes moral progress.
AND societies don't keep improving forever automatically. Many fail, hence the declines.

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:07 pmWhy do I have to do that?

If you are going to pretend that life 5000 years was better than it is today - then give up all of your posessions and become my slav.e
I have work for you.
If this is the crux of your argument, then it's a bad one. You're implying that people don't work like slaves and dogs today. They do. And many do, in the West, under the auspice of "illegal immigration". These people have little to no civil rights. So 5000 years is not much of an advancement, correct?

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:07 pmWhich is why I am counting all of those factors in the general concept of "well being".

Ceteris paribus less depression is better than more depression. As we lower depression we progress.
Ceteris paribus less misery is better than more misery. As we lower misery we progress.
I'm not yet convinced.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:03 amIf my daughter has half the business acumen Kim Kardashian has - I'd be extatic.

Scratch that. If I had half the business acumen...
Yikes....

There are more valuable things in life than money, such as honor, decency, integrity. And this is before the intellectual arena.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 8:05 amIsrael is a thoroughly Western society, and doesn't seem to be in decline, either. Perhaps that's the answer, having a common sense of purpose.
The Jewish sense of purpose is based on fundamentalist, Abrahamic religious zealotry. The Orthodoxy over there, instills deep metaphysical ideology into their children. Foreign Jews tend to call themselves "Secularist" and Atheist/Agnostic, despite their Hebrew relatives linked to their religion.

The reason why Jews are motivated differently than other peoples, tribes, societies, and cultures, is because of their historical antagonism, mostly between the Romans, and then the Persians and Arabs.

You claim to be a native British Druid. Is your religious fanaticism and zealotry any different than theirs? Except, the Abrahamic religion is totalitarian, prophetic, and apocalyptic. Thus their ideology is fit for large, sprawling, warring Empires. This is why Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the popular majority. It is why a small, pagan operative, is debased, baseless, and non-competitive. These ideologies are a battle of few versus many.

Most people choose Quantity over Quality, by default. What is popular, is true, to them.


I don't think of Israel as "Western". Why do you?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 5:02 am I like to be neutral with Jews, no Love, no Hate.
But you do think there is a conspiracy of jewish control over the banking system, with a predictable outcome being the financial ruin of western civilisation?
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