Decline of the West???

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amOne of your predictions for the decline of the west are that the nazis will stage a comeback after the Jews have done their jewy thing to destroy the world economy, that's already apparent. It is not of topic to ask what other stuff you blame on the jews.
Your neuroticism is palpable.

You're missing the point. Societies and Civilizations rise and fall. In Western countries, where there are large swaths of Jews in prominent positions of Mass Media, Journalism, Banking, Pharmaceuticals...then during a fall/decline, what you call "Anti-Semitism" rises. It maybe unwarranted. It maybe warranted. Either way, whether it's real or not, it is based on your own, personal fear.

This is because of the tribal, secular, and exclusive nature of Jewish people, racially and spiritually. For example, if Jews are issuing loans at high interest rates, and an economy crashes, then the people of that country will associate economic depression and misery to Jews. It may, or may not, be justified. The nature of this justice, is morally ingrained into the principle of Usury, whether interest rates are justified in a society, why and how. Catholics, for example, consider Usury immoral, and so do Jewish people consider immoral among their own kin. So Orthodox Jews do not practice Usury on one-another, in Israel, but do so, and are allowed, in foreign countries.

This type of international economic leveraging, highly organized, highly motivated, is responsible for most of what you deem "Anti-Semitism".

Only the Anglos, the European Rothschilds, perhaps the Saudi Arabian royals, the Chinese Communist Party, etc. have similar racial organization and motivation equivalent to be competitive against these types of international trades and economies.

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amAfter that we may, time permitting, wish to look into why you so frequently reference black people as particularly violent.
Where do you live, England?

Move to Chicago in gang land, or any US major city ghetto, or African country, spend a year there, return and tell me then how "not violent" black people are when they are a majority population in an area...
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pmIt's not about the money. It's about the ability to create something of social worth.
I believe Kim Kardashian is a net negative social worth.

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pmYou have this tendency to default to reductionism... It's precisely what makes your value system worthless.
And you have a tendency to over-generalize.

My "value system" is irrelevant. This thread is about large societal change, incline or decline, objectively measured. It's not about my or your subjective opinions or beliefs or experiences. There needs to be measures of wide arrays of societal "progress/regress". There's no guarantee that human history "only goes forward", although I already agreed with your point that over large periods of time, millenniums, the standard-of-living, among the middle class, tends to go up. That may or may not be the extent of this conversation. You haven't convinced me of the point.

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:28 pmI think you are confused. There's no such thing as societies (plural). There's society (singular). The whole thing of human affairs.

Countries/nations/empires come and go.

Society carries on.
There are countless societies. Societies of states and countries. Societies of class. Societies of race. Societies of gender. Societies of culture. There are many ways to classify "Society" into sub-sections.

I do not believe "We are all Human". Are you a Humanist?

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pmObviously it's complicated, but what good is optimisim if it ultimately causes the quality of life to diminish?

Hoping for the best doesn't work unless you are ready to deal with the worst also.
Optimism is not simply "hoping for the best". It's about actually working toward a social objective. Societies can fail, and decline. Societies can succeed, and incline.

But they cannot incline forever. Nor do they succeed forever.

Success brings its own set of new problems.

Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pmOf course. That's why your cynicism is misplaced. You think the past was better than the future.

There's a word for that...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactionary
Sometimes the past is better than the present. You're missing this point.
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Dontaskme
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Dontaskme »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am Societies and Civilizations rise and fall.
What goes up must come down, what rises must fall, what falls, rises up again...ad infinitum.

Life is metaphor, and metaphorically speaking life is like the phoenix in nature, it is simultaneously burning and then rising from the ashes with renewed youth to live through another cycle.

Life is the way it is because it cannot be any other way than the way it is, else it would be the way it isn't. And life is NEVER the way it isn't, it is always the way it is...when it comes to having KNOWLEDGE or KNOWING of it.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:21 amWhat goes up must come down, what rises must fall, what falls, rises up again...ad infinitum.

Life is metaphor, and metaphorically speaking life is like the phoenix in nature, it is simultaneously burning and then rising from the ashes with renewed youth to live through another cycle.

Life is the way it is because it cannot be any other way than the way it is, else it would be the way it isn't. And life is NEVER the way it isn't, it is always the way it is...when it comes to having KNOWLEDGE or KNOWING of it.
Yes, but, what is our current direction collectively...Up, or Down? Or...plateaued?
Skepdick
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 12:19 pmIt's not about the money. It's about the ability to create something of social worth.
I believe Kim Kardashian is a net negative social worth.
That's not possible. No individual has the power to do more harm than the rest of humanity has the power to do good.

If that were possible we wouldn't see any improvement over time. We would see society getting worse.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am And you have a tendency to over-generalize.
How am I over-generalizing when I am only talking about your value system? In particular!

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am My "value system" is irrelevant.
No it isn't. The assertions you are making are informed by your value system.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am This thread is about large societal change, incline or decline, objectively measured.
Yeah!

Annd we've seen a lot of objective data from me.
And a lot of feelings from you.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am It's not about my or your subjective opinions or beliefs or experiences.
Yes it is.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am There needs to be measures of wide arrays of societal "progress/regress".
Sure. And then you aggregate all of those measures into one single, overal metric - either society is getting better; worse or it remains unchainged.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am There's no guarantee that human history "only goes forward"
Yes there is. Physics. The arrow of time.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am although I already agreed with your point that over large periods of time, millenniums, the standard-of-living, among the middle class, tends to go up. That may or may not be the extent of this conversation. You haven't convinced me of the point.
It's not on me to convince you of anything. If you have a point (and your point is that society is "declining") - make it.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am There are countless societies. Societies of states and countries. Societies of class. Societies of race. Societies of gender. Societies of culture. There are many ways to classify "Society" into sub-sections.

I do not believe "We are all Human". Are you a Humanist?
I don't give a shit about the label. We are all living together and we interact with each other. By definition interaction between parts is a system.

Perhaps it's a system of systems. But overall it's a single system.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am Optimism is not simply "hoping for the best". It's about actually working toward a social objective. Societies can fail, and decline. Societies can succeed, and incline.
Oprimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. It's about the end result.

An optimist and a pessimist both work for a better life. The question is whether they get there.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am Sometimes the past is better than the present. You're missing this point.
I am not missing the point. You are failing to make a point.

Sometimes the past is better than the present.
Sometimes the future is better than the present.

But if we stop there that's a false equivalence!

There is more to be said here!

It's because more often than not the future is better than the present is why we are observing progress and not regress!
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amOne of your predictions for the decline of the west are that the nazis will stage a comeback after the Jews have done their jewy thing to destroy the world economy, that's already apparent. It is not of topic to ask what other stuff you blame on the jews.
Your neuroticism is palpable.

You're missing the point. Societies and Civilizations rise and fall. In Western countries, where there are large swaths of Jews in prominent positions of Mass Media, Journalism, Banking, Pharmaceuticals...then during a fall/decline, what you call "Anti-Semitism" rises. It maybe unwarranted. It maybe warranted. Either way, whether it's real or not, it is based on your own, personal fear.
Jews don't actually run any of those industries. You are talking about antisemtic conspiracy theories as if they are sensible.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am This is because of the tribal, secular, and exclusive nature of Jewish people, racially and spiritually. For example, if Jews are issuing loans at high interest rates, and an economy crashes, then the people of that country will associate economic depression and misery to Jews. It may, or may not, be justified. The nature of this justice, is morally ingrained into the principle of Usury, whether interest rates are justified in a society, why and how. Catholics, for example, consider Usury immoral, and so do Jewish people consider immoral among their own kin. So Orthodox Jews do not practice Usury on one-another, in Israel, but do so, and are allowed, in foreign countries.
Are you from the 17th century? What's all this nonsense about usuary? Interest rates aren't set by Jews, we have central banks like the Fed and the Bank of England that set interest rates to stabilise prices against desired employment levels.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am This type of international economic leveraging, highly organized, highly motivated, is responsible for most of what you deem "Anti-Semitism".
It's the manufacture of the antisemtic myth of this Jewish economic leverage that is "Anti-Semitism". Along with that blood libel you did about Ukraine sacrificing millions of Slavs a while ago of course, that was "Anti-Semitism" too.

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am Only the Anglos, the European Rothschilds, perhaps the Saudi Arabian royals, the Chinese Communist Party, etc. have similar racial organization and motivation equivalent to be competitive against these types of international trades and economies.
I can't even decode that weirdness. Is there some other way to put whatever that point was?
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amAfter that we may, time permitting, wish to look into why you so frequently reference black people as particularly violent.
Where do you live, England?

Move to Chicago in gang land, or any US major city ghetto, or African country, spend a year there, return and tell me then how "not violent" black people are when they are a majority population in an area...
So you do hold a belief that black people have an inherently violent nature, but you can't quite write the words for yourself?
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Dontaskme
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Dontaskme »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:24 am
Yes, but, what is our current direction collectively...Up, or Down? Or...plateaued?
It's exactly what it should be, for what it is couldn't be any other direction, else it would be where it isn't, which is never the case.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:10 am
FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amOne of your predictions for the decline of the west are that the nazis will stage a comeback after the Jews have done their jewy thing to destroy the world economy, that's already apparent. It is not of topic to ask what other stuff you blame on the jews.
Your neuroticism is palpable.

You're missing the point. Societies and Civilizations rise and fall. In Western countries, where there are large swaths of Jews in prominent positions of Mass Media, Journalism, Banking, Pharmaceuticals...then during a fall/decline, what you call "Anti-Semitism" rises. It maybe unwarranted. It maybe warranted. Either way, whether it's real or not, it is based on your own, personal fear.

This is because of the tribal, secular, and exclusive nature of Jewish people, racially and spiritually. For example, if Jews are issuing loans at high interest rates, and an economy crashes, then the people of that country will associate economic depression and misery to Jews. It may, or may not, be justified. The nature of this justice, is morally ingrained into the principle of Usury, whether interest rates are justified in a society, why and how. Catholics, for example, consider Usury immoral, and so do Jewish people consider immoral among their own kin. So Orthodox Jews do not practice Usury on one-another, in Israel, but do so, and are allowed, in foreign countries.

This type of international economic leveraging, highly organized, highly motivated, is responsible for most of what you deem "Anti-Semitism".

Only the Anglos, the European Rothschilds, perhaps the Saudi Arabian royals, the Chinese Communist Party, etc. have similar racial organization and motivation equivalent to be competitive against these types of international trades and economies.

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:17 amAfter that we may, time permitting, wish to look into why you so frequently reference black people as particularly violent.
Where do you live, England?

Move to Chicago in gang land, or any US major city ghetto, or African country, spend a year there, return and tell me then how "not violent" black people are when they are a majority population in an area...
+++Only the Anglos, the European Rothschilds, perhaps the Saudi Arabian royals, the Chinese Communist Party, etc. have similar racial organization and motivation equivalent to be competitive against these types of international trades and economies.+++

Who do you mean by the Anglos? That word just means the English, and I don't know of any "racial organisation and motivation" among them.

As for inherent violence, this is clearly something that is shared by people in general, and it manifests to a greater or lesser extent depending on circumstances. History is littered with acts of violence and savagery and no one race can claim a monopoly on it.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amThat's not possible. No individual has the power to do more harm than the rest of humanity has the power to do good.

If that were possible we wouldn't see any improvement over time. We would see society getting worse.
Read the room, others argue that society *IS* getting worse.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amHow am I over-generalizing when I am only talking about your value system? In particular!
Because of your belief in "One" society.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amNo it isn't. The assertions you are making are informed by your value system.
This is a philosophy forum and I'd like to be philosophical. I don't presume the objective standard is given. You tell me how "Society" rises and falls...or as you seem to argue, it simply doesn't fall...?

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amYeah!

Annd we've seen a lot of objective data from me.
And a lot of feelings from you.
Because you haven't proven your case. So what if middle class "standard of living" goes up...in the West? This isn't what other people necessarily mean by rise or fall. And it certainly doesn't apply to everybody, by class, by culture, by religion, etc. Even, given your argument, people in this thread still disagree with you.

Shall we take home ownership as the standard of living? Then, by that measure, it is declining.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amYes it is.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am There needs to be measures of wide arrays of societal "progress/regress".
Sure. And then you aggregate all of those measures into one single, overal metric - either society is getting better; worse or it remains unchainged.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am There's no guarantee that human history "only goes forward"
Yes there is. Physics. The arrow of time.
That's nonsense.

A person's life can be subjectively *AND* objectively better, in the past.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amIt's not on me to convince you of anything. If you have a point (and your point is that society is "declining") - make it.
Read the title of the thread. It is a question. Those in the first pages already answered: "Decline". You are the minority position. So you should defend your position.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amI don't give a shit about the label. We are all living together and we interact with each other. By definition interaction between parts is a system.

Perhaps it's a system of systems. But overall it's a single system.
Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:17 am Optimism is not simply "hoping for the best". It's about actually working toward a social objective. Societies can fail, and decline. Societies can succeed, and incline.
Oprimism or pessimism has nothing to do with it. It's about the end result.

An optimist and a pessimist both work for a better life. The question is whether they get there.
Then we disagree, I think the journey is more important than the 'End'.

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:41 amI am not missing the point. You are failing to make a point.

Sometimes the past is better than the present.
Sometimes the future is better than the present.

But if we stop there that's a false equivalence!

There is more to be said here!

It's because more often than not the future is better than the present is why we are observing progress and not regress!
I already made this argument: it is generally the upper-middle class and rich, that 'consistently' progress. Insuchthat, they do not suffer poverty, and continually enjoy All systemic progress, All conveniences, technologies, cultural improvements.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 amJews don't actually run any of those industries. You are talking about antisemtic conspiracy theories as if they are sensible.
Delusional, you and I both know that Jews own significant portions of these industries.

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 amAre you from the 17th century? What's all this nonsense about usuary? Interest rates aren't set by Jews, we have central banks like the Fed and the Bank of England that set interest rates to stabilise prices against desired employment levels.
Yes, they are, Janet Yellen runs the FED in the United States. Care to lookup her Wiki page? I'll do your homework, for you:

Quote (Wikipedia):

Yellen was born on August 13, 1946,[2] to a family of Polish Jewish[3] ancestry in the Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, neighborhood of New York City, and grew up there.[4] Her mother was Anna Ruth (née Blumenthal; 1907–1986), an elementary school teacher who gave up her teaching job to become a stay-at-home mother. Her father was Julius Yellen (1906–1975), a family physician who worked from the ground floor of their house. Janet has an older brother, John (born 1942), who is a program director for archaeology at the National Science Foundation.[5][6]

In a speech at the POLIN Museum of the History of Polish Jews, Yellen said that her father's family immigrated to the United States from Sokołów Podlaski, a small town about 50 miles outside of Warsaw. She shared that nearly the entirety of its Jewish population, including many of her relatives, was deported or murdered during the Holocaust.[7]


FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 amIt's the manufacture of the antisemtic myth of this Jewish economic leverage that is "Anti-Semitism". Along with that blood libel you did about Ukraine sacrificing millions of Slavs a while ago of course, that was "Anti-Semitism" too.
Is it "Anti-Semitism" if it's true? No, it wouldn't be.

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 amI can't even decode that weirdness. Is there some other way to put whatever that point was?
It means that some "conspiracies" are known conspiracies. Not all conspiracies are "theory". Some are true. Some groups, organizations, work according to their group interests. When it comes to Jews, it is an ethnic-racial hypothesis. You are referring to the "conspiracy" of international Jews "controlling everything". I illuminate the details. It's not everything. But it is, significant portions of Western Civilization in banking and finance, at the least, and excluding Mass Media.

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:46 amSo you do hold a belief that black people have an inherently violent nature, but you can't quite write the words for yourself?
It's not that simple.

Black violence tends to be gang bangers drive-by shooting each other, weekly, in the Chicago ghetto.

White violence tends to be international warfare, as such Russians and Ukrainians being slaughtered in the East.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Dontaskme wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:48 amIt's exactly what it should be, for what it is couldn't be any other direction, else it would be where it isn't, which is never the case.
:arrow:
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 amWho do you mean by the Anglos? That word just means the English, and I don't know of any "racial organisation and motivation" among them.

As for inherent violence, this is clearly something that is shared by people in general, and it manifests to a greater or lesser extent depending on circumstances. History is littered with acts of violence and savagery and no one race can claim a monopoly on it.
It does not "just mean the English".

It means the East Coast American Colonial WASPs who built New York, Washington DC, and later confiscating the West Coast from the Spanish, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.

It means the American GDP.

It means world industry and finance.

It means trillions and trillions of dollars.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:05 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:09 amWho do you mean by the Anglos? That word just means the English, and I don't know of any "racial organisation and motivation" among them.

As for inherent violence, this is clearly something that is shared by people in general, and it manifests to a greater or lesser extent depending on circumstances. History is littered with acts of violence and savagery and no one race can claim a monopoly on it.
It does not "just mean the English".

It means the East Coast American Colonial WASPs who built New York, Washington DC, and later confiscating the West Coast from the Spanish, Los Angeles, San Francisco, etc.

It means the American GDP.

It means world industry and finance.

It means trillions and trillions of dollars.
It does mean the English. It's Latin, for English. One assumes the Americans you refer to use the term because they're of English descent.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:12 amIt does mean the English. It's Latin, for English. One assumes the Americans you refer to use the term because they're of English descent.
That's debatable.

I've heard claims Angles are German. I don't believe them, but there's no consensus on the ethnic/racial composition of the Anglo tribe.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:15 am
Maia wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:12 amIt does mean the English. It's Latin, for English. One assumes the Americans you refer to use the term because they're of English descent.
That's debatable.

I've heard claims Angles are German. I don't believe them, but there's no consensus on the ethnic/racial composition of the Anglo tribe.
The original tribe of the Angles spoke a Germanic language. Old English, as we call it today.
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