Decline of the West???

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Wizard22
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Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Some claim that the West is in decline, or stagnant at best.

Very few or none, claim that the West is on the rise.


Questions to you to start this conversation/debate:

What's your position or opinion on the matter, is the West ascending, stagnant, or declining?

Should the West ascend? Automatically, people want their own society/tribe/country/party to ascend, but why? Why is your group better than..."the East" for example? Why should "Westerners" rule-over the globe, the East?

Everything has become globalized/americanized/internationalized. Should people return to Nationalism, small concentrated power in the hands of a few countries, over many others? Are the American-Anglos still in charge, or has another Tribe taken over, taken the reigns? Who "deserves" to be in charge, if not the current "powers that be"?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:13 am Some claim that the West is in decline, or stagnant at best.

Very few or none, claim that the West is on the rise.
That's an outdated Victorian world view, the only people who would think in such terms at all are the sort who would always buy into a Malthusian decline theory as a matter of course anyway.

The west is doing fine.
Impenitent
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Impenitent »

deserve has nothing to do with anything...

it comes down to firepower- always has...

-Imp
commonsense
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by commonsense »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:13 am Some claim that the West is in decline, or stagnant at best.
Very few or none, claim that the West is on the rise.
Inasmuch as the U.S. may be considered the archetype for the West, there continues to be a not so subtle decline.

For one thing, we’ve dumbed down education. Perhaps out of necessity we’ve had to de-emphasize the 3 Rs and focus on technology.

But just ask a Gen Z’er to make change or to spell “dysentery” and you’ll know we’ve lost some of the basics that underlie technology.

AI has pried Pandora’s box open such that we don’t know what capabilities the robots will possess. We’ve developed AI simply because it could be done.

We’ve replaced our concept of right and wrong with one that says there are no consequences unless you cannot afford a lawyer good enough to get you off.

There’s the problem of immigration at our southern border that neither the conservatives nor the progressives can resolve.

We have polarized our nation over issues such as abortion or gun safety or LGBTQ+ rights in our society.

We’ve taken a step back on discussions about racism such that we can’t even agree on whether it’s a problem or not.

Gerrymandering has prevailed over politics for quite some time.

Our economy has become fragile.

Our working class is weakening.

Yes, we’re in decline. We ca hope that our future will proceed in a cyclical fashion rather than a linear one.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 pm Inasmuch as the U.S. may be considered the archetype for the West
You are the only country that can't do gun control because the USA is so Exceptional that nothing that other countries do would work in Exceptional America. In other news you are the only country that teaches school children how to apply a tourniquet while hiding from murderers. You are the only western country where people get into something called "medical debt", because Exceptional America cannot do universal healthcare. Exceptional America is the only western country politically dominated by religious bigotry, the only one where a court routinely removes laws written by the parliament, and not coincidentally the only one where both judges and prosecutors are also basically politicians. And you have a gerrymandering problem because unlike any other western country you perversely allow politicians to draw up the boundaries of their own electoral districts, actively encouraging abuses.

Only Americans have the nerve to be the exception to every civilised standard of the western world and still glibly assume that you are the archetype that the rest of us aspire to emulate.
commonsense
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by commonsense »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:44 pm
commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 pm Inasmuch as the U.S. may be considered the archetype for the West
You are the only country that can't do gun control because the USA is so Exceptional that nothing that other countries do would work in Exceptional America. In other news you are the only country that teaches school children how to apply a tourniquet while hiding from murderers. You are the only western country where people get into something called "medical debt", because Exceptional America cannot do universal healthcare. Exceptional America is the only western country politically dominated by religious bigotry, the only one where a court routinely removes laws written by the parliament, and not coincidentally the only one where both judges and prosecutors are also basically politicians. And you have a gerrymandering problem because unlike any other western country you perversely allow politicians to draw up the boundaries of their own electoral districts, actively encouraging abuses.

Only Americans have the nerve to be the exception to every civilised standard of the western world and still glibly assume that you are the archetype that the rest of us aspire to emulate.
Flash, you are absolutely correct.

Perhaps I misused the term “archetype”. As I said, you are correct in your estimation of the uniqueness of the US. I would only submit that the largest portion of the West, by population, is the US. In that sense it is the largest template for western states.

I completely agree with your post.
popeye1945
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by popeye1945 »

The United States has been the greatest military power in the world since World War Two. It has been empire-building for a few hundred years and to the world at large it has not been a kind master, which is, by the way, an understatement. The United States took over much of the colonizing power which had been the British mission in the world and has been every bit, if not more brutal in its passion for acquiring ever-increasing power. It has treated the world badly, all the while claiming to be the pillar of virtue, the protector of democracy and freedom, they majored in bullshit. Overthrowing democracies that failed to serve American corporations before their own people, and supporting violent dictators that served those same interests as murderous American puppets.

The times they are changing, American aggression in its wager for world domination has created a united front of most of the countries of the world. There is a shift in international power and the American empire is in decline worldwide. American currency is not going to be the major currency of the world any longer. Its own house is divided and the homeless are legion. The historical racism of the colonial adventure hopefully will end with the fall of the America empire. America can but hope the world has more compassion than it itself showed the world, as its power is leeched to the rest of the world. Is the west in decline, you bet your ass.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Impenitent wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:36 pmdeserve has nothing to do with anything...

it comes down to firepower- always has...

-Imp
Soldiers still have to pull the trigger.
Politicians still have to convince the public.

Russians just recently too Bakhmut. Isn't this symbolic of Western decline, by your own logic?
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 pmInasmuch as the U.S. may be considered the archetype for the West, there continues to be a not so subtle decline.

For one thing, we’ve dumbed down education. Perhaps out of necessity we’ve had to de-emphasize the 3 Rs and focus on technology.

But just ask a Gen Z’er to make change or to spell “dysentery” and you’ll know we’ve lost some of the basics that underlie technology.

AI has pried Pandora’s box open such that we don’t know what capabilities the robots will possess. We’ve developed AI simply because it could be done.

We’ve replaced our concept of right and wrong with one that says there are no consequences unless you cannot afford a lawyer good enough to get you off.

There’s the problem of immigration at our southern border that neither the conservatives nor the progressives can resolve.

We have polarized our nation over issues such as abortion or gun safety or LGBTQ+ rights in our society.

We’ve taken a step back on discussions about racism such that we can’t even agree on whether it’s a problem or not.

Gerrymandering has prevailed over politics for quite some time.

Our economy has become fragile.

Our working class is weakening.

Yes, we’re in decline. We ca hope that our future will proceed in a cyclical fashion rather than a linear one.
You make a compelling case, commonsense.


commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:17 pmFor one thing, we’ve dumbed down education.
This is one of the biggest signals to me. I remember when I was young, growing up in public school, I remember even in the 1990s the stories about the previous generation or two before me in the school system—they had so many more resources, sports, quality teachers, etc. Public schooling was already in steep decline in the 1990s. I can't even imagine what goes on in American schools today...probably gang violence, youths intimidating teachers, ghettoization, and more.

It seems to me the cultural rot in the West started in the schools, and has only gotten worse since 1990. Only the wealthy, private schools were buffered. But even those are probably infiltrated nowadays. American "education" is gone.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:46 am The United States has been the greatest military power in the world since World War Two. It has been empire-building for a few hundred years and to the world at large it has not been a kind master, which is, by the way, an understatement. The United States took over much of the colonizing power which had been the British mission in the world and has been every bit, if not more brutal in its passion for acquiring ever-increasing power. It has treated the world badly, all the while claiming to be the pillar of virtue, the protector of democracy and freedom, they majored in bullshit. Overthrowing democracies that failed to serve American corporations before their own people, and supporting violent dictators that served those same interests as murderous American puppets.

The times they are changing, American aggression in its wager for world domination has created a united front of most of the countries of the world. There is a shift in international power and the American empire is in decline worldwide. American currency is not going to be the major currency of the world any longer. Its own house is divided and the homeless are legion. The historical racism of the colonial adventure hopefully will end with the fall of the America empire. America can but hope the world has more compassion than it itself showed the world, as its power is leeched to the rest of the world. Is the west in decline, you bet your ass.
The Old World, the "East", have ancient grudges though. Millenniums-long blood feuds (Iran vs Israel). Do you really think the International community can align economic and military power against the Anglo-led American coalition?

But it does seem Russians are pushing West right now...?
popeye1945
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by popeye1945 »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:29 am
popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 7:46 am The United States has been the greatest military power in the world since World War Two. It has been empire-building for a few hundred years and to the world at large it has not been a kind master, which is, by the way, an understatement. The United States took over much of the colonizing power which had been the British mission in the world and has been every bit, if not more brutal in its passion for acquiring ever-increasing power. It has treated the world badly, all the while claiming to be the pillar of virtue, the protector of democracy and freedom, they majored in bullshit. Overthrowing democracies that failed to serve American corporations before their own people, and supporting violent dictators that served those same interests as murderous American puppets.

The times they are changing, American aggression in its wager for world domination has created a united front of most of the countries of the world. There is a shift in international power and the American empire is in decline worldwide. American currency is not going to be the major currency of the world any longer. Its own house is divided and the homeless are legion. The historical racism of the colonial adventure hopefully will end with the fall of the America empire. America can but hope the world has more compassion than it itself showed the world, as its power is leeched to the rest of the world. Is the west in decline, you bet your ass.
The Old World, the "East", have ancient grudges though. Millenniums-long blood feuds (Iran vs Israel). Do you really think the International community can align economic and military power against the Anglo-led American coalition?

But it does seem Russians are pushing West right now...?
There is a united front against American aggression, and its call the BRICS, meaning at the beginning, Brazil, Russia, India, China and south Africa, but since that beginning some twenty or more other countries have applied to join this united front. The power of the United States is being undermined, and the American dollar is being replaced as the number one world currency. It is the Americans pushing east using Ukrainian people in their proxy war against Russian. America is on Russia's border; Russia is not on America's border.
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

popeye1945 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 12:09 pmRussia is not on America's border.
The world has become globalized. How 'Americanized' is Ukraine? How much money has Biden personally sent Zelensky, this past year? Where is that money going?

"10% for the Big Guy" Who's the big guy??? What does this mean?

Russia and USA are not far from each other, on the Alaskan border too. NATO is practically "America" at this point, seeing how useless, spineless, and servile they are.


Germany gets its gas line bombed by USA, and what does it do? Even one complaint? Even one European "Reporter" dare talk about it?
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

A week ago Wizard was doing a sci-fi thread about going into space and invading aliens, his complaint about people who scoffed at that lunacy was that we weren't forward thinking enough. Now he's doing Victorian era Speres of Influence geopolitics with a bunch of old men who feel bad about candy not tasting as good as it did when it came wrapped in wax paper.
Skepdick
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

FlashDangerpants wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 1:09 pm A week ago Wizard was doing a sci-fi thread about going into space and invading aliens, his complaint about people who scoffed at that lunacy was that we weren't forward thinking enough. Now he's doing Victorian era Speres of Influence geopolitics with a bunch of old men who feel bad about candy not tasting as good as it did when it came wrapped in wax paper.
Are you OK, dude?

Between over-simplified reductionist nonsense about Malthusians, lack of universal healthcare, mass shootings and candy in wax paper you are really struggling to strawman the question.
Impenitent
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Impenitent »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:22 am
Impenitent wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 5:36 pmdeserve has nothing to do with anything...

it comes down to firepower- always has...

-Imp
Soldiers still have to pull the trigger.
Politicians still have to convince the public.

Russians just recently too Bakhmut. Isn't this symbolic of Western decline, by your own logic?
do you know why China will invade Taiwan instead of California?

-Imp
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