Decline of the West???

How should society be organised, if at all?

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Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:53 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pmAnd since I can't read the Latin alphabet, I must be illiterate.
If someone carved a sentence out of Latin characters, could you feel the carvings and read it?

I know it wouldn't be as smooth and natural of an experience for you as reading Braille, but could you? Do you tactically know the shapes of the letters well enough to do that?
Yes, we were taught their shapes at school with large, raised letters. I might be a bit rusty, though.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:55 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:53 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pmAnd since I can't read the Latin alphabet, I must be illiterate.
If someone carved a sentence out of Latin characters, could you feel the carvings and read it?

I know it wouldn't be as smooth and natural of an experience for you as reading Braille, but could you? Do you tactically know the shapes of the letters well enough to do that?
Yes, we were taught their shapes at school with large, raised letters. I might be a bit rusty, though.
That's something I never really thought about. Blind people's connection to the shapes of our letters and numbers. Interesting. Thanks for answering.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:15 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:55 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:53 pm

If someone carved a sentence out of Latin characters, could you feel the carvings and read it?

I know it wouldn't be as smooth and natural of an experience for you as reading Braille, but could you? Do you tactically know the shapes of the letters well enough to do that?
Yes, we were taught their shapes at school with large, raised letters. I might be a bit rusty, though.
That's something I never really thought about. Blind people's connection to the shapes of our letters and numbers. Interesting. Thanks for answering.
You're welcome. When I think of anything written, it's always Braille that I think of.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:18 pm You're welcome. When I think of anything written, it's always Braille that I think of.
When you're reading in braille, do you mentally hear the sounds in your head? Or is reading purely a tactile experience with no imagined auditory element?
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:57 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:18 pm You're welcome. When I think of anything written, it's always Braille that I think of.
When you're reading in braille, do you mentally hear the sounds in your head? Or is reading purely a tactile experience with no imagined auditory element?
Yes, when reading I imagine the words being spoken.
Flannel Jesus
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Flannel Jesus »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:01 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:57 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:18 pm You're welcome. When I think of anything written, it's always Braille that I think of.
When you're reading in braille, do you mentally hear the sounds in your head? Or is reading purely a tactile experience with no imagined auditory element?
Yes, when reading I imagine the words being spoken.
Cool, same. Apparently not everyone does that, apparently speed readers can digest the words without the sound. I can't 😭
Wizard22
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Wizard22 »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pmIt's not second hand transcription at all, but a fully developed writing system in it's own right. According to your argument, if it's written or composed in Braille, it's not English. And since I can't read the Latin alphabet, I must be illiterate.
Quite the presumption there...

I base literacy on whether a person can repeat what s/he has read or heard verbatim, along with the ability to integrate and understand all layers of its meaning.

There are many people who can read a paragraph, and not understand it. That is illiteracy.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:21 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:01 pm
Flannel Jesus wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 5:57 pm

When you're reading in braille, do you mentally hear the sounds in your head? Or is reading purely a tactile experience with no imagined auditory element?
Yes, when reading I imagine the words being spoken.
Cool, same. Apparently not everyone does that, apparently speed readers can digest the words without the sound. I can't 😭
I also imagine the words being spoken when I type them, too, as in right now. Interesting, it's so natural that I had hardly even thought about it.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:23 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:49 pmIt's not second hand transcription at all, but a fully developed writing system in it's own right. According to your argument, if it's written or composed in Braille, it's not English. And since I can't read the Latin alphabet, I must be illiterate.
Quite the presumption there...

I base literacy on whether a person can repeat what s/he has read or heard verbatim, along with the ability to integrate and understand all layers of its meaning.

There are many people who can read a paragraph, and not understand it. That is illiteracy.
Well, maybe in a broader sense, but in a literal sense, literacy is simply the ability to read and write, in some format or other.
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FlashDangerpants
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by FlashDangerpants »

Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:15 pm
FlashDangerpants wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:11 amYou are attempting to make a racial point with that video about black people being violent? That proves my point that you think entirely in racial terms.
No, you are an Accuser and projecting your own racism. You don't even know what you're talking about, even when confronted with the reality of black-majority populations and what they do when unpoliced.

You're simple-minded.
In two sentences you went from denying your own racism, to accusing me of your racism, to saying that racism is right anyway.

Let's not evade the racism problem you have.
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:32 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:29 pm
I don't use the Latin alphabet when I read English.
Yes you do.

But they do not determine language, which it always preliterate historically and personally.
I assure I do not use the Latin alphabet when I read English. Please try and think what you're saying.
I'm sorry to have to inform you but you do. You are reading it right now. And when you write numbers you are using the Arabic numbering system.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:35 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:32 pm

Yes you do.

But they do not determine language, which it always preliterate historically and personally.
I assure I do not use the Latin alphabet when I read English. Please try and think what you're saying.
I'm sorry to have to inform you but you do. You are reading it right now. And when you write numbers you are using the Arabic numbering system.
My screenreader reads the Latin alphabet and Arabic numbers and then converts them into speech for me. I don't read them myself. When I write, that is, when I type, I press the appropriate keys which are then converted into the Latin alphabet or Arabic numbers, but again, I don't actually write them myself.

A fine distinction, perhaps, but in a discussion about the actual letters, as opposed to the sounds they represent, a relevant one, I think.
Skepdick
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm
Skepdick wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 6:46 amI am not arguing for "humanism"; or "we are one".
Except when you claimed "We are all one society"...
It's like you are struggling with basic English comprehension or something.

Through the lens of systems theory any number of entities interacting makes a system. 8 billion people on Earth interacting makes up the system called "society".

It's not an argument - it's a trivial implication of the definition.
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm Read this thread and other peoples' opinions again.
I am not going to explain weight of evidence to you again.
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm I asked a question. Most agree that the West is in decline. You have not proved that it is not.
So you are defaulting to a bandwagon fallacy and you want me to prove a negative?

OK then...
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm Because large societies associate as such. Much of it is political, like the US-NATO alliance, or WEF operating securely in the United States and representing most US corporations.
Russia and China are large countries. Nigeria are large countries. You aren't really addressing the question.
Wizard22 wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:24 pm It depends on what being poor is like in both circumstances. It might be worse now.
It seems philosophy has become nothing other than abusing Cunningham's law...
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Sculptor
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Sculptor »

Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 4:35 pm

I assure I do not use the Latin alphabet when I read English. Please try and think what you're saying.
I'm sorry to have to inform you but you do. You are reading it right now. And when you write numbers you are using the Arabic numbering system.
My screenreader reads the Latin alphabet and Arabic numbers and then converts them into speech for me. I don't read them myself. When I write, that is, when I type, I press the appropriate keys which are then converted into the Latin alphabet or Arabic numbers, but again, I don't actually write them myself.

A fine distinction, perhaps, but in a discussion about the actual letters, as opposed to the sounds they represent, a relevant one, I think.
I see. (no pun intended)
But not relevant to, and rather digressive to the current debate.
But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Maia
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Re: Decline of the West???

Post by Maia »

Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 10:18 pm
Maia wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:48 pm
Sculptor wrote: Tue Jun 06, 2023 7:36 pm

I'm sorry to have to inform you but you do. You are reading it right now. And when you write numbers you are using the Arabic numbering system.
My screenreader reads the Latin alphabet and Arabic numbers and then converts them into speech for me. I don't read them myself. When I write, that is, when I type, I press the appropriate keys which are then converted into the Latin alphabet or Arabic numbers, but again, I don't actually write them myself.

A fine distinction, perhaps, but in a discussion about the actual letters, as opposed to the sounds they represent, a relevant one, I think.
I see. (no pun intended)
But not relevant to, and rather digressive to the current debate.
But you DO use the Latin alphabet, just one step removed.
Well, as I said, when I think of the printed word, I think of Braille. I don't think it's true to say that I use the Latin alphabet at all in any meaningful sense, and I certainly don't think in it. I can sign my name, and that's about it, though I can't vouch for its legibility.

The point is that English can be, and is, written in scripts other than the Latin alphabet, which has no intrinsic connection to the spoken word.
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