YOU are Abrahamic

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Harbal
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Harbal »

Wizard22 wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 12:49 pm
Harbal wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 1:00 pmMy alternative to any religion is to have no religion. What do you claim religion to have that I need, and which I must look for elsewhere if I don't look to religion for it?
Where is it? Where are the 'unique' beliefs which set you apart from them?
I don't think I have beliefs in the sense I take you to mean. Obviously, I believe some things to be true, and others not, but I don't believe in any ideology. That includes political or any other ideology. We are all influenced by our upbringing, prevailing social attitudes, and various other things, and I daresay we live our lives without even questioning many of these influences, but to the extent to which it is possible, I need to be the one who figures out how I ought to conduct myself, and what values I should to uphold. It is not for any religious authority to tell me these things.
Sure that's easy to say and claim.

But how easy is it to actually follow-through?
That's just the way it is; it doesn't involve effort; quite the opposite.
If the OP is true, and these mass beliefs are true across Humanity, then what have you really 'decided' upon exact the same cereal with different packaging?



In other words...where are these 'truly unique ideas' that people ought to have a Choice about?
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am Instead of Faith in God, you have Faith in Science.
Instead of The Church, you have The State.
Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", you have "Trust the Experts".
Instead of Creationism, you have The Big Bang.
Instead of Fall from Providence, you have Systemic Oppression.
Instead of Manifest Destiny, you have Determinism.

So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?

Are you still not a mind-slave of Catholic Rome after 2000 years? Where is your Resistance? Where is your Freedom? Where are your "New" Ideas?

This is your Buck-Breaking from thousands of years ago: that your parents, grand-parents, great-grand-parents, g-g-g-parents, g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-parents succumbed to.

YOU are Abrahamic.
YOU have NO philosophy, no resistance, no original thoughts.
YOU are still Subject to those who have ruled above you for Millenniums now.
YOU have not...freed your mind.
You have never even touched Philosophy once in your short lives. So close...yet so far away.
You are too presumptive above and basing on too shallow and narrow knowledge.

For self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists" [in 100s of millions], their position is this;

Instead of Faith in God, we have NO Faith in God.
Instead of The Church, we have NO church.
Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", we have NO clergies.
Instead of Creationism, we have NO Creationism.
Instead of Fall from Providence, we have NO Fall from Providence .
Instead of Manifest Destiny, we have NO Manifest Destiny,

So, "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", [non-theists] what have you?
Since there are 100s of millions of them, you just cannot apply blanket generalization to them.

The non-theists comprised within a continuum from very good, good, ugly, bad, to very evil.

Having abandoned immutable God commanded beliefs and ideology, the trend of the non-theists is a continuous improvements of the good side and this is driven by a generic life problem technique expounded from Buddhism [a non-theistic religion]

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

This generic problem has contributed to the progress of humanity from its days when it was dominated by immutable theistic doctrines.

Sure progress has brought along its corresponding problems but the iterative generic life problem technique is self-correcting with its feedback control to generate continuous improvements and reduction in problems.
Last edited by Veritas Aequitas on Fri May 26, 2023 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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attofishpi
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by attofishpi »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:07 am
Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am Instead of Faith in God, you have Faith in Science.
Instead of The Church, you have The State.
Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", you have "Trust the Experts".
Instead of Creationism, you have The Big Bang.
Instead of Fall from Providence, you have Systemic Oppression.
Instead of Manifest Destiny, you have Determinism.

So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?

Are you still not a mind-slave of Catholic Rome after 2000 years? Where is your Resistance? Where is your Freedom? Where are your "New" Ideas?

This is your Buck-Breaking from thousands of years ago: that your parents, grand-parents, great-grand-parents, g-g-g-parents, g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-parents succumbed to.

YOU are Abrahamic.
YOU have NO philosophy, no resistance, no original thoughts.
YOU are still Subject to those who have ruled above you for Millenniums now.
YOU have not...freed your mind.
You have never even touched Philosophy once in your short lives. So close...yet so far away.
You are too presumptive above and basing on too shallow and narrow knowledge.

For self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists" [in 100s of millions], their position is this;

Instead of Faith in God, we have NO Faith in God.
Instead of The Church, we have NO church.
Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", we have NO clergies.
Instead of Creationism, we have NO Creationism.
Instead of Fall from Providence, we have NO Fall from Providence .
Instead of Manifest Destiny, we have NO Manifest Destiny,
Well then, keep the fuck out of our Churches for your weddings and funerals!! :P
Veritas Aequitas
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Veritas Aequitas »

attofishpi wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:12 am
Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:07 am You are too presumptive above and basing on too shallow and narrow knowledge.

For self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists" [in 100s of millions], their position is this;

Instead of Faith in God, we have NO Faith in God.
Instead of The Church, we have NO church.
Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", we have NO clergies.
Instead of Creationism, we have NO Creationism.
Instead of Fall from Providence, we have NO Fall from Providence .
Instead of Manifest Destiny, we have NO Manifest Destiny,
Well then, keep the fuck out of our Churches for your weddings and funerals!! :P
WTF!
You are so ignorant.

There is the legal Marriage Registrar in all sovereign nations.
I am from the East, it is not a common thing to have weddings and funerals in Churches.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Sculptor wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:02 pmWorst than what?
What is blind faith. It that like wet water?
But yes whenever scientists act like religious people, that is bad.
How about the presumption of Science believing the Big Bang, Atheists following Christian morals and ethics, and allying with Humanity when 'Human' is a generalization stemming from the Abrahamic faiths into "One" common denominator across the entire specie?
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:56 pm.
.
.

So, what are yours?
Concerning your previous posts, you definitely underestimate how difficult it is to resist and "fight back" against these domineering Faiths.

It's not so simple. Surely you can go around telling 99.9% of Western people that they are wrong/incorrect/inaccurate in BOTH their fundamental religious AND scientific views...but you'll be spinning your wheels rhetorically against the lowest of the low. These systems are protected and reproduced from the Top-Down. This means that, unless you represent the apex of authority in any part of the system, the masses will ultimately write you off as a lunatic. It doesn't matter how effective or persuasive your presentation. It doesn't matter how reasonable or rational. It doesn't matter how philosophically invested the Interlocutors deign to be.

What matters are fundamental shifts of direction, "paradigm shifts", away from the center of these systems.


Imagine taking over a Church, and trying to teach them that God is false.

Imagine taking over a School, and trying to teach them that the Big Bang is false.

You'll get visceral, vicious reaction from all directions. Again, you underestimate the human mass' dependence on these prevailing and domineering ideologies. Why? Because the masses want to be left alone. They want to be indoctrinated with lies and falsity. They want Magic-thinking. They want pretty words, instead of deep meaning.

Philosophy is for the outside-Outsiders, not for Humanity.


Maybe, just maybe, when space colonization occurs, some new Puritan sects can take new non-Human or anti-Human or anti-Abrahamic ideologies with them to new places. But then they'd be "starting over", reinventing the wheel.

I think I recently asked, in this thread, what is this nature of Dependence on Abrahamism and its Secularization? Why are so few, essentially nobody, willing to "leave" these plantations? Because they are most effective at what they do. So if you start over, try to re-invent the wheel, you'll eventually reassert a Monotheistic faith against Polytheism. You'll eventually preposition One God against Many. You'll eventually require Messianism, Prophecy, and Victimization/Scapegoating. Much or most of your Morality will 'repeat' the grand design.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Harbal wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 6:07 pmThat's just the way it is; it doesn't involve effort; quite the opposite.
I can tell how hard you've fought...or haven't fought.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Veritas Aequitas wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:07 amSo, "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", [non-theists] what have you?
Since there are 100s of millions of them, you just cannot apply blanket generalization to them.

The non-theists comprised within a continuum from very good, good, ugly, bad, to very evil.

Having abandoned immutable God commanded beliefs and ideology, the trend of the non-theists is a continuous improvements of the good side and this is driven by a generic life problem technique expounded from Buddhism [a non-theistic religion]

Buddhism's 4NT-8FP is a Life Problem Solving Technique.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=25193

This generic problem has contributed to the progress of humanity from its days when it was dominated by immutable theistic doctrines.

Sure progress has brought along its corresponding problems but the iterative generic life problem technique is self-correcting with its feedback control to generate continuous improvements and reduction in problems.
attofishpi wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:12 amWell then, keep the fuck out of our Churches for your weddings and funerals!! :P
I don't like to agree with the crazy lunatic, but atipifishy has a point, Vertias.

I don't think Buddhism or Eastern moral-systems have cut into Western Civilization. Maybe Islam, maybe, yet that is another branch of Abrahamic Monotheism. Hindus and Buddhists comprise a small minority, AND, on top of this, these get lumped into Atheism and Secularism all the same.

I do agree with the 'cyclical' nature of time and reality of Eastern religious. History repeats...because humanity has a tendency not to learn past mistakes very well. Especially when a Century or two passes. There is a 'behavioral sink' problem after 4 generations of human progression. Great-grandparents don't always pass on memetic wisdom to their genetic ancestors. This creates the Repetition problem, of repeating past social and civilizational errors.

That's the effectiveness of Secularism. It can withhold some divergent values from Abrahamism...until Abrahamism consumes and digests it. These ideologies evolve over time: Memetics, Memeology, Meme-plex.
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attofishpi
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by attofishpi »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:01 am I don't like to agree with the crazy lunatic, but atipifishy has a point, Vertias.
I have no idea who this atipifishy crazy lunatic is, but maybe if you cut bigger holes in the pointy KKK head covering oh grand wizard, you would have seen that attofishpi made yet another extremely intelligent point. U fuckwit.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Uh oh the libtard is mad again.... :shock:
Iwannaplato
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:54 am Concerning your previous posts, you definitely underestimate how difficult it is to resist and "fight back" against these domineering Faiths.
I don't think it's easy at all. Or, better put, some people seem to think it's easy. They rebel easily and never show any doubt or admit it to themselves. I am not sure those people are really feeling and thinking their way through.
It's not so simple. Surely you can go around telling 99.9% of Western people that they are wrong/incorrect/inaccurate in BOTH their fundamental religious AND scientific views...but you'll be spinning your wheels rhetorically against the lowest of the low.
I don't think there's any need to do it in some large blanket condemnation. One can just bring unique views, one a time, into discussions, for example.
These systems are protected and reproduced from the Top-Down. This means that, unless you represent the apex of authority in any part of the system, the masses will ultimately write you off as a lunatic.
I agree.
It doesn't matter how effective or persuasive your presentation. It doesn't matter how reasonable or rational. It doesn't matter how philosophically invested the Interlocutors deign to be
.I agree, but again, one can, if one wants, introduce specific ideas or phenomena, carefully, online or in person with people who at least seem potentially open.

What matters are fundamental shifts of direction, "paradigm shifts", away from the center of these systems.

Imagine taking over a Church, and trying to teach them that God is false.

Imagine taking over a School, and trying to teach them that the Big Bang is false.

You'll get visceral, vicious reaction from all directions. Again, you underestimate the human mass' dependence on these prevailing and domineering ideologies.
I don't know what you're basing your belief that I am underestimating the problems with going public with truly unique or alternative positions.

Why? Because the masses want to be left alone. They want to be indoctrinated with lies and falsity. They want Magic-thinking. They want pretty words, instead of deep meaning.

Philosophy is for the outside-Outsiders, not for Humanity.
Well, if you look around this forum there are a good number of people who would be and are diagnosed by people online. Nothing beyond that seems to happen. I am not ruling it out, but my gut sense is that as long as you don't put forward some concrete threats of violence against people with power, you can present alternative ideas and be ignored by anyone with political or economic muscle.

Maybe, just maybe, when space colonization occurs, some new Puritan sects can take new non-Human or anti-Human or anti-Abrahamic ideologies with them to new places. But then they'd be "starting over", reinventing the wheel.
For good or for ill, I am not ready to cede this planet. It's my home.
I think I recently asked, in this thread, what is this nature of Dependence on Abrahamism and its Secularization? Why are so few, essentially nobody, willing to "leave" these plantations? Because they are most effective at what they do. So if you start over, try to re-invent the wheel, you'll eventually reassert a Monotheistic faith against Polytheism. You'll eventually preposition One God against Many. You'll eventually require Messianism, Prophecy, and Victimization/Scapegoating. Much or most of your Morality will 'repeat' the grand design.

I didn't really understand this part.


It seems like this part and the post as a whole is saying it is hopeless and in some strong sense you consider yourself unfree. Even to reveal your unique positions in a philosophy forum no one with power gives a shit about or takes seriously.

But I am not sure you are hopeless of feel unfree to speak, just making my best guess of the general message here.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

If a person cannot even entertain the idea of NO Abrahamic-God AND NO Big Bang... then there's not much to be done, unfortunately.

You are presuming that people can even agree on this basic, NO beginning (to the universe). You'd be wrong.

People are dependent on a 'beginning', a 'God', a Teleology, a System, as the basis of legitimacy to their political institutions.


You're missing the point that you can't just "take these away". Maybe you can entertain the idea, maybe. But few others can. And you don't seem aware of this fact.
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 8:28 am If a person cannot even entertain the idea of NO Abrahamic-God AND NO Big Bang... then there's not much to be done, unfortunately.
There are physicists who are atheist and do not think the universe had a beginning. And there are plenty of people who can entertain the idea of both being false.
You are presuming that people can even agree on this basic, NO beginning (to the universe). You'd be wrong.
There are many physicists who thing the Big Band which was really a fast period of expansion was not, or was not necessarily the beginning of the universe.
People are dependent on a 'beginning', a 'God', a Teleology, a System, as the basis of legitimacy to their political institutions.
People I have hung out with have always been open to the possibility that the universe did not begin at the Big Bang. In fact it is a common misconception that we know or that physicists believe that the Big Bang was necessarily the beginning of the universe or that it had one. I've mentioned this before. Sure, many humanists and Abrahamists thinks that's what it must mean, but no. There are models taken seriously in the scientific community that do not look at it this way.

You're missing the point that you can't just "take these away".
I don't think I said that. But in case I communicated sloppily, I don't think one can 'just take them away'
Maybe you can entertain the idea, maybe.
I've been doing more that entertaining the idea that neither is the case since I was a teenager and that's a long time ago. And I had discussions about it with my Dad, who could also entertain the idea. He was an atheist so one was easy, but he was also familiar with cosmological theories (not at the math level or in detail) so that idea was floating around my house.
But few others can. And you don't seem aware of this fact.
YOu are reading my posts poorly. why is that?

Not once. Not one single time did you respond to the core message of my last post, where I confirmed that going public with ideas could be very problematic, but added that one could share more specific unique ideas, rather than trying to strip away EVERYTHING AT ONCE.

Not once have you shown me an idea that I haven't had contact with in hundreds of other people. Atheism, many times. Anti-abrahamism in a variety of forms, thousands of times. People anything from skeptical about the Big Bang being the full begining of the universe or open to it not being (I mean shit it even SAYS THAT IN WIKIPEDIA), lots. In most of close social world with people on a few continents and a number of countries there isn't one Abrahamist and most are either skeptical that the Big Bang was the beginning or are open to it.

It's a small part of the world population, yes. But where are these unique ideas you have that humanists and Abrahamists have not thought of?
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

I linked you to an idea a few weeks ago, about "Universal Nodality Theory". That's pretty unique. At least it's not an idea that I've ever heard from another before.

The main point I'm making though, is that far before there are any 'alternatives', there first needs to be an Exit or Out of these grand-systems: Abraham or Secular. You keep skipping over this point based on your own anecdotal experience, which is fine. You and your own, your social group, entertains alternatives. Well done. Now we need to address the other 99.99% of the Western Hemisphere. I presume you are in touch with the rest of your society, and this forum, with regard to prevalent and dominant ideas and ideology.

Christians, Jews, Moslems...none of these are in a hurry to 'leave' their religion, their faith, their millenniums-old systems. And why should they? They're convinced they're right. And, on top of this self-righteousness, some of them have good, reasonable, persuasive arguments. When I look at the Roman Cathedrals, I'm honestly impressed. I don't see Secularists making substantial, long-lasting, 1000-year old Architecture, Monuments, Structures and Statues for the ages. Secularists/Protestants arrived very late. New, versus Old. West, versus East.

But have these Secular institutions lasted? Some of them are already decaying and destroyed.

What happened to the World Trade Center towers? Did those last long, a thousand years???


Humans landed on the Moon...and then immediate regression, immediate backwardness, immediate "let's never send men outward again".

So there's something significant to say about the "lasting power" of Abraham, and the Secularists they've inspired.
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Iwannaplato »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:37 am I linked you to an idea a few weeks ago, about "Universal Nodality Theory". That's pretty unique. At least it's not an idea that I've ever heard from another before.
It sounds reasonable. There are papers about it, written by professionals from normal academic institutions.
The main point I'm making though, is that far before there are any 'alternatives', there first needs to be an Exit or Out of these grand-systems: Abraham or Secular.
I don't think it's an either or situation. Presenting alternatives AND criticizing introjected ideas can go happily hand in hand.
You keep skipping over this point based on your own anecdotal experience, which is fine. You and your own, your social group, entertains alternatives. Well done. Now we need to address the other 99.99% of the Western Hemisphere. I presume you are in touch with the rest of your society, and this forum, with regard to prevalent and dominant ideas and ideology.
Sure. Nowhere have I claimed that it's easy to change people's minds or that most people are just sitting there ready to be approached and convinced. My gut sense: not going to happen. But it seemed like in your previous posts that you generally felt like there was little you could do at all. And it seems to me that waiting for a time when you can convince nearly everyone to leave their core paradigmatic beliefs before going into alteratives ends up being an excuse for stasis.
But have these Secular institutions lasted? Some of them are already decaying and destroyed.

What happened to the World Trade Center towers? Did those last long, a thousand years???
They were ugly. It's that people died while they were demolished, but not that they were demolished. I don't see much gained from trying to demonstrate (to me anyway) that of the two groups of people you consider deluded you admired one more than the other.
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