YOU are Abrahamic

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Sculptor
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Sculptor »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 7:45 am
Sculptor wrote: Thu May 25, 2023 1:02 pmWorst than what?
What is blind faith. It that like wet water?
But yes whenever scientists act like religious people, that is bad.
How about the presumption of Science believing the Big Bang, Atheists following Christian morals and ethics, and allying with Humanity when 'Human' is a generalization stemming from the Abrahamic faiths into "One" common denominator across the entire specie?
Science does not "believe" in the Big Bang. If you do not understand that then you do not understand science.
Many cosmologies for the appearances of the data and evidence.
As that evidence changes, or grows so too do the theories.
As James Webb provides ever more amazing information.
At the moment some theories are extending and refining the idea of the Big Bang, whilst other theories are suggested.
This is the strength of science.
There is nothing weaker and more idiotic than your absurd Abrahamic POV.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Iwannaplato wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 10:48 amThey were ugly. It's that people died while they were demolished, but not that they were demolished. I don't see much gained from trying to demonstrate (to me anyway) that of the two groups of people you consider deluded you admired one more than the other.
Because it's essential to understand where ideas come from, and why Secularists tend to delude themselves by presenting a false-alternative that ultimately leads nowhere, or back to the same starting point as the Abrahamics.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 amScience does not "believe" in the Big Bang. If you do not understand that then you do not understand science.
Many cosmologies for the appearances of the data and evidence.
As that evidence changes, or grows so too do the theories.
As James Webb provides ever more amazing information.
At the moment some theories are extending and refining the idea of the Big Bang, whilst other theories are suggested.
This is the strength of science.
There is nothing weaker and more idiotic than your absurd Abrahamic POV.
They do 'believe' it because anything that cannot be reproduced through experiment, is not Empirical, and therefore not Scientific.
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Sculptor
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Sculptor »

Wizard22 wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:17 pm
Sculptor wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 11:54 amScience does not "believe" in the Big Bang. If you do not understand that then you do not understand science.
Many cosmologies for the appearances of the data and evidence.
As that evidence changes, or grows so too do the theories.
As James Webb provides ever more amazing information.
At the moment some theories are extending and refining the idea of the Big Bang, whilst other theories are suggested.
This is the strength of science.
There is nothing weaker and more idiotic than your absurd Abrahamic POV.
They do 'believe' it because anything that cannot be reproduced through experiment, is not Empirical, and therefore not Scientific.
You are an idiot.
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Sculptor
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Sculptor »

I always find this hilarious, because most religious nuts do it at some point.

They know full well that faith and belief are totally inadequate and so they accuse scientists of faith and belief.
And when science changes its mind they see it as a weakness when in fact it is the strength of science that it can change its theories.

Wizzy the Wiz is doing this. Showing that faith and belief are inadequate, thus shooting himself in the foot.

This sort of endemic self delusion is a common feature of religion and one of the many reasons I reject it.
commonsense
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by commonsense »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am Instead of Faith in God, you have Faith in Science.

Instead of The Church, you have The State.

Instead of "Trust the Priest/Rabbi/Imam", you have "Trust the Experts".

Instead of Creationism, you have The Big Bang.

Instead of Fall from Providence, you have Systemic Oppression.

Instead of Manifest Destiny, you have Determinism.

So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?

Are you still not a mind-slave of Catholic Rome after 2000 years? Where is your Resistance? Where is your Freedom? Where are your "New" Ideas?

YOU are Abrahamic.

YOU have NO philosophy, no resistance, no original thoughts.

YOU are still Subject to those who have ruled above you for Millenniums now.

YOU have not...freed your mind.

You have never even touched Philosophy once in your short lives. So close...yet so far away.
Wizard22:

Thank you for your heartfelt OP. As I understand your argument, you begin by drawing similarities between religion and science. You ask a number of questions, all seeming to require an answer that suggests that atheists (et al) are no different than theists. Next you indicate that you have knowledge of the mental characteristics of the former group.

I beg you to consider that similarities are not the same as equivalencies. Your similes are good, but your argument is weak, and your estimation of atheists seems narrow sighted.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Sculptor wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 12:29 pmYou are an idiot.
It's always amusing.

The Secular "Trust the Expert!" types always prove they know nothing about Science.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:00 pmWizard22:

Thank you for your heartfelt OP. As I understand your argument, you begin by drawing similarities between religion and science. You ask a number of questions, all seeming to require an answer that suggests that atheists (et al) are no different than theists. Next you indicate that you have knowledge of the mental characteristics of the former group.

I beg you to consider that similarities are not the same as equivalencies. Your similes are good, but your argument is weak, and your estimation of atheists seems narrow sighted.
I used to believe the same as you.

But then I grew up, matured, and saw that the pattern of belief is the same between Secularists and Abrahamists. Same ideology, same ideas, same beliefs, but using different words, different terms, different authors, different sources.

"The Big Bang"
"Creation/Genesis"


...so I plan to go into further detail why Secularists pretend that they are "other than" their Abrahamic counter-parts. Why the need to delude oneself? Why the need to pretend these ideologies and beliefs are "different" when they're not? Is it a need for individuality, to set oneself apart? Spite? It can be as simple as spite. Rome and the Catholics surely set the paradigm by which Angles, Germans, Jews, and much the rest of the world feel the need to avenge themselves.

When you create a system so pervasive and domineering, competitors feel obliged to set themselves apart, despite copying most (or all) of their ideas verbatim from the dominant culture.
Skepdick
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Skepdick »

Wizard22 wrote: Wed May 24, 2023 9:27 am So I have to ask you self-proclaimed "Atheists", "Agnostics", "Secularists", "Humanists", where exactly is your hypothetical Philosophy? Where are you different than those "religious zealots" you presume to be so much better than, superior to? How is your ideology any different, when your self-proclaimed, proud beliefs, are the exact same pattern?
The difference is that I know it's all just a theory - a social construct. Which is precisely why I believe in the "myth" of creation.

I choose to believe. They believe without choosing it.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Skepdick wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:35 amThe difference is that I know it's all just a theory - a social construct. Which is precisely why I believe in the "myth" of creation.

I choose to believe. They believe without choosing it.
That's a good point.

Choice requires awareness, which the Secularists don't seem to have.
commonsense
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by commonsense »

Wizard22 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:13 am
commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:00 pmWizard22:

I beg you to consider that similarities are not the same as equivalencies. Your similes are good, but your argument is weak, and your estimation of atheists seems narrow sighted.
I used to believe the same as you.

But then I grew up, matured, and saw that the pattern of belief is the same between Secularists and Abrahamists. Same ideology, same ideas, same beliefs, but using different words, different terms, different authors, different sources.
What continues to trouble me is the tenet that God is the same thing that science is, that the Church is identical to the State, that clergymen are the same as science experts, and so on.

Similar, yes. But identical they are not. The comparisons are not as strong as you propose.
Age
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Age »

commonsense wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pm
Wizard22 wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 9:13 am
commonsense wrote: Fri May 26, 2023 3:00 pmWizard22:

I beg you to consider that similarities are not the same as equivalencies. Your similes are good, but your argument is weak, and your estimation of atheists seems narrow sighted.
I used to believe the same as you.

But then I grew up, matured, and saw that the pattern of belief is the same between Secularists and Abrahamists. Same ideology, same ideas, same beliefs, but using different words, different terms, different authors, different sources.
What continues to trouble me is the tenet that God is the same thing that science is, that the Church is identical to the State, that clergymen are the same as science experts, and so on.

Similar, yes. But identical they are not. The comparisons are not as strong as you propose.
But, HAVING A BELIEF of some 'thing' can be the EXACT SAME. For example, A BELIEF that 'Everything' came FROM some 'god' or FROM some 'bang' can be IDENTICAL. The "believers" all 'trying to' "justify" 'their position/BELIEF. One is just called 'religious' while the other is just called 'science', but BOTH are based on ASSUMPTIONS or GUESSES, ONLY, while each CLAIMING that 'their views, positions, or BELIEFS are MORE CORRECT because 'they each' FOLLOW 'the literature, AND 'the experts'.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

Age wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:12 pmBut, HAVING A BELIEF of some 'thing' can be the EXACT SAME. For example, A BELIEF that 'Everything' came FROM some 'god' or FROM some 'bang' can be IDENTICAL. The "believers" all 'trying to' "justify" 'their position/BELIEF. One is just called 'religious' while the other is just called 'science', but BOTH are based on ASSUMPTIONS or GUESSES, ONLY, while each CLAIMING that 'their views, positions, or BELIEFS are MORE CORRECT because 'they each' FOLLOW 'the literature, AND 'the experts'.
commonsense wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pmWhat continues to trouble me is the tenet that God is the same thing that science is, that the Church is identical to the State, that clergymen are the same as science experts, and so on.

Similar, yes. But identical they are not. The comparisons are not as strong as you propose.
Age gets the point I'm making, commonsense.

I think you're mistaking different intentions. Two people can hold the same Belief (Creationism) with different intent, which produces vastly different rationalizations (Abrahamic v Secular).
commonsense
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by commonsense »

Wizard22 wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:45 am
Age wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 3:12 pmBut, HAVING A BELIEF of some 'thing' can be the EXACT SAME. For example, A BELIEF that 'Everything' came FROM some 'god' or FROM some 'bang' can be IDENTICAL. The "believers" all 'trying to' "justify" 'their position/BELIEF. One is just called 'religious' while the other is just called 'science', but BOTH are based on ASSUMPTIONS or GUESSES, ONLY, while each CLAIMING that 'their views, positions, or BELIEFS are MORE CORRECT because 'they each' FOLLOW 'the literature, AND 'the experts'.
commonsense wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 2:53 pmWhat continues to trouble me is the tenet that God is the same thing that science is, that the Church is identical to the State, that clergymen are the same as science experts, and so on.

Similar, yes. But identical they are not. The comparisons are not as strong as you propose.
Age gets the point I'm making, commonsense.

I think you're mistaking different intentions. Two people can hold the same Belief (Creationism) with different intent, which produces vastly different rationalizations (Abrahamic v Secular).
You both are conflating similarity with equality. Atheists do not believe in creationism by any intent whatsoever.
Wizard22
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Re: YOU are Abrahamic

Post by Wizard22 »

commonsense wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 12:11 pmYou both are conflating similarity with equality. Atheists do not believe in creationism by any intent whatsoever.
They do IF and WHEN the Big Bang is in fact "the same" as Creationism.

First there was Nothing,
Then there was Something.

How is that not the exact same?
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