B is here and now, we gotta work our way back through time - many events to extrapolate upon, many stories - finding the correct one is the key to how I am typing messages with U right now.Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 amSo why can't we just focus on B and ignore the stories?attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 amI'd think, that if many underdetermined stories arrived at point B, then attempting to find which "story" arrives at point B with the most efficiency, should be examined first.
Sort of, Occams Razor stuff. (how water flows etc..)
Philosophy undermines truth
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
In my case it's like I'm speaking to a forgetful, autistic conspiracy nut.
Who says you have to? If someone asks me whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, gravitons or any of the other underdetermined theories, I say I don't know.
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
Are you asking this question because you already know the answer, or, are you seriously curious as to what the actual answer is exactly?Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 amSo why can't we just focus on B and ignore the stories?attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 amI'd think, that if many underdetermined stories arrived at point B, then attempting to find which "story" arrives at point B with the most efficiency, should be examined first.
Sort of, Occams Razor stuff. (how water flows etc..)
Example: We agree that murder is wrong.
WHY is murder wrong?
Why then do you appear to be very desparate to express your story here?
If your stories do not matter, then why the continuous attempt to be heard, and understood?
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
There's plenty of evidence to the contrary but you seem impervious to it.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:34 amIn my case it's like I'm speaking to a forgetful, autistic conspiracy nut.
Nobody says you "have to" and yet here you are. Doing it. Whether you have to or not.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:34 amWho says you have to? If someone asks me whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, gravitons or any of the other underdetermined theories, I say I don't know.
You've committed yourself to a story in which gravity exists.
Even though the stories in which it doesn't exist are equally underdetermined.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
..there comes a point where 'things' perhaps have no 'cause'.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 11:34 amWho says you have to? If someone asks me whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, gravitons or any of the other underdetermined theories, I say I don't know.
And, if that is a case, then from a human perception point of view that then requires no consideration of time, no causality.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
As it happens I have committed to a story according to which I am not being deceived by an evil demon, and there really are objects out there that fall to the ground when not prevented from doing so. I have also committed to the story that something is making that happen, rather than any alternative lots of coincidental events hypothesis. While I can't prove it, I consider the possibility that I am being deceived on one or both counts remote.
In that context, there are no stories in which gravity doesn't exist. Having established that things really do fall Earthward, and that gravity is the cause, I concede that there are several stories that account for gravity. I have not committed to any one of them, because the evidence of falling objects is explained equally well by several of them. Hence stories about the cause of gravity are underdetermined, but gravity itself is a fact,
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
Surely the story about the "remoteness" of the possibility is underdetermined?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pmAs it happens I have committed to a story according to which I am not being deceived by an evil demon, and there really are objects out there that fall to the ground when not prevented from doing so. I have also committed to the story that something is making that happen, rather than any alternative lots of coincidental events hypothesis. While I can't prove it, I consider the possibility that I am being deceived on one or both counts remote.
Apparently ALL theories are underdetermined. Is tihs one an exception?
Yeah but outside of that context there are yet more stories in which the falling of things and the non-existence of gravity are both true.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pm In that context, there are no stories in which gravity doesn't exist. Having established that things really do fall Earthward
But you have committed yourself to the class of stories where gravity exists; while you have dismissed the class of stories where it doesn't.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pm , and that gravity is the cause, I concede that there are several stories that account for gravity. I have not committed to any one of them, because the evidence of falling objects is explained equally well by several of them. Hence stories about the cause of gravity are underdetermined,
And here I thought the falling of objects was a fact while gravity was just a theory.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
U R being a dickhead Skeppy - there are no examples within physics where gravity does not exist. (or as you are applying the term "story"..and allow me to just insist, stories exist on Earth.)Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:22 pmSurely the story about the "remoteness" of the possibility is underdetermined?Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pmAs it happens I have committed to a story according to which I am not being deceived by an evil demon, and there really are objects out there that fall to the ground when not prevented from doing so. I have also committed to the story that something is making that happen, rather than any alternative lots of coincidental events hypothesis. While I can't prove it, I consider the possibility that I am being deceived on one or both counts remote.
Apparently ALL theories are underdetermined. Is tihs one an exception?
Yeah but outside of that context there are yet more stories in which the falling of things and the non-existence of gravity are both true.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pm In that context, there are no stories in which gravity doesn't exist. Having established that things really do fall Earthward
But you have committed yourself to the class of stories where gravity exists; while you have dismissed the class of stories where it doesn't.Will Bouwman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:15 pm , and that gravity is the cause, I concede that there are several stories that account for gravity. I have not committed to any one of them, because the evidence of falling objects is explained equally well by several of them. Hence stories about the cause of gravity are underdetermined,
And here I thought the falling of objects was a fact while gravity was just a theory.
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
Yeah there are...attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:27 pm U R being a dickhead Skeppy - there are no examples within physics where gravity does not exist. (or as you are applying the term "story")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
..well, I'm impressed - it's still gravity: This is an exceedingly low threshold, measuring only 12 trillionths gravity's strength at Earth's surface; an object dropped from a height of one meter would fall for 36 hours were Earth's gravity this weak. It is also 3,000 times less than the remnant of Earth'sSkepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:30 pmYeah there are...attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:27 pm U R being a dickhead Skeppy - there are no examples within physics where gravity does not exist. (or as you are applying the term "story")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity
"Entropic gravity, also known as emergent gravity, is a theory in modern physics that describes gravity"
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
So your conception of "gravity" is unfalsifiable? It's a sacred cow - e.g it's not even wrong ?!?attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:31 pm..well, I'm impressed - it's still gravity: This is an exceedingly low threshold, measuring only 12 trillionths gravity's strength at Earth's surface; an object dropped from a height of one meter would fall for 36 hours were Earth's gravity this weak. It is also 3,000 times less than the remnant of Earth'sSkepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:30 pmYeah there are...attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:27 pm U R being a dickhead Skeppy - there are no examples within physics where gravity does not exist. (or as you are applying the term "story")
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity
"Entropic gravity, also known as emergent gravity, is a theory in modern physics that describes gravity"
Maybe you want to read this part again...
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
Wot is the point U R trying to make?Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:34 pmSo your conception of "gravity" is unfalsifiable? It's a sacred cow - e.g it's not even wrong ?!?attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:31 pm..well, I'm impressed - it's still gravity: This is an exceedingly low threshold, measuring only 12 trillionths gravity's strength at Earth's surface; an object dropped from a height of one meter would fall for 36 hours were Earth's gravity this weak. It is also 3,000 times less than the remnant of Earth'sSkepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:30 pm
Yeah there are...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropic_gravity
"Entropic gravity, also known as emergent gravity, is a theory in modern physics that describes gravity"
Maybe you want to read this part again...
Do things of mass attract each other or not - does gravity exist?
It's a binary answer ffs
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
You don't seem to understand that that's not one question. That's two questions.attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:37 pm Do things of mass attract each other or not - does gravity exist?
It's a binary answer ffs
Do things with mass attact each other? Yes they do. That's a fact.
Is it gravity that's causing the attraction or is there some other explanation? Whatever the answer - it's a metaphysical theory.
Last edited by Skepdick on Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth
..Ah!! U R back to wanting to redefine accepted words within the English language to suit your alternate view of "REALITY"Skepdick wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:45 pmYou don't seem to understand that that's not one question. That's two questions.attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:37 pm Do things of mass attract each other or not - does gravity exist?
It's a binary answer ffs
Do things with mass attact each other? Yes they do. That's a fact.
Is it gravity that's causing the attraction or is there some other explanation? Whatever the answer - it's a metaphysical theory.
..we call it GRAVITY.
Re: Philosophy undermines truth
Nothing like that.attofishpi wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:48 pm ..Ah!! U R back to wanting to redefine accepted words within the English language to suit your alternate view of "REALITY"
"Gravity" is a thought-terminating cliche.
When I ask you "Why do apples fall from trees?" the answer to such a "Why?" question is "gravity."
If it turns out that it's the latter; that there's some theory which explains why things fall better than the current gravitational theories we have then gravity is scientifically falsified and it ceases to exist.
There's no re-definition. That's just how falsification works.