Philosophy undermines truth

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Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:09 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:31 pm Well, we know that things fall.... We know that something is causing them to fall. Whatever causes things to fall is called gravity, but we don't know what it is.
The circular reasoning is hilarious.

If you didn't pre-suppose falling to be the effect of some unknown cause you wouldn't have to fill the self-inflicted void with "gravity".
Silly old Isaac Newton. And there's me thinking he came up with this abstraction
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:28 pmto create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise. --Edsger W. Dijkstra
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:09 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 9:31 pm Well, we know that things fall.... We know that something is causing them to fall. Whatever causes things to fall is called gravity, but we don't know what it is.
The circular reasoning is hilarious.

If you didn't pre-suppose falling to be the effect of some unknown cause you wouldn't have to fill the self-inflicted void with "gravity".
Silly old Isaac Newton. And there's me thinking he came up with this abstraction
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:28 pmto create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise. --Edsger W. Dijkstra
The confusion between the formal and the informal is incredible.

The formalism encodes what's effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance.
The English encodes a story of cause and effect.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:13 am
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 10:09 pm
The circular reasoning is hilarious.

If you didn't pre-suppose falling to be the effect of some unknown cause you wouldn't have to fill the self-inflicted void with "gravity".
Silly old Isaac Newton. And there's me thinking he came up with this abstraction
Skepdick wrote: Tue May 30, 2023 1:28 pmto create a new semantic level in which one can be absolutely precise. --Edsger W. Dijkstra
The confusion between the formal and the informal is incredible.
Since you are still confused, let me clear things up for you:
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 amThe formalism encodes what's effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance.
That's science.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 amThe English encodes a story of cause and effect.
And as I keep saying philosophy is story telling.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:49 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:13 am Silly old Isaac Newton. And there's me thinking he came up with this abstraction
The confusion between the formal and the informal is incredible.
Since you are still confused, let me clear things up for you:
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 amThe formalism encodes what's effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance.
That's science.
No shit.

As Einstein showed us - there's another encoding possible.

And as computer scientists showed us - there are some limits to encodings and formal systems.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:49 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 amThe English encodes a story of cause and effect.
And as I keep saying philosophy is story telling.
And as I keep saying "story telling" is an euphemism for lying.

Did you click the "Submit" button before you finished clearing things up for me?
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:49 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:21 amThe formalism encodes what's effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance.
That's science.
No shit.

As Einstein showed us - there's another encoding possible.
You don't think general relativity is "effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance"? As it happens, Einstein based GR on a story about a malleable substance which is warped by matter: "According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable." https://mathshistory.st-andrews.ac.uk/E ... ein_ether/
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 amAnd as computer scientists showed us - there are some limits to encodings and formal systems.
What they have shown is that there are limits they don't yet know how to get through.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 amAnd as I keep saying "story telling" is an euphemism for lying.
Do you think all stories are lies?
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:52 amDid you click the "Submit" button before you finished clearing things up for me?
Tragically in your case that will always be so.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am You don't think general relativity is "effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance"?
All formalisms are geometric. It's all syntax.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am As it happens, Einstein based GR on a story about a malleable substance which is warped by matter
And here I thought he based it on a Minkowsky space.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am What they have shown is that there are limits they don't yet know how to get through.
That's a peculiar use of "know" given the limits of computer science are the limits of knowlede.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am Do you think all stories are lies?
Of course. ALl models are wrong - some are useful.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am Tragically in your case that will always be so.
I mean, I only have this problem when you are "clarifying".

It's probably the stories you tell.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:25 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 amYou don't think general relativity is "effectively a gemoetric reationship between mass and distance"?
All formalisms are geometric. It's all syntax.
I wouldn't use syntax in that context.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:25 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 amAs it happens, Einstein based GR on a story about a malleable substance which is warped by matter
And here I thought he based it on a Minkowsky space.
Well, he took the mathematical Minkowski space and re-imagined it as a malleable substance which is warped by matter.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:25 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am What they have shown is that there are limits they don't yet know how to get through.
That's a peculiar use of "know" given the limits of computer science are the limits of knowlede.
I suppose you could make that case if you limit knowledge to propositional knowledge, but it seems a perfectly legitimate use of know to me.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:25 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am Do you think all stories are lies?
Of course. ALl models are wrong - some are useful.
I wouldn't use 'lie' in that context either.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:25 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 8:16 am Tragically in your case that will always be so.
I mean, I only have this problem when you are "clarifying".

It's probably the stories you tell.
Well, as always there are alternative explanations you might consider. It could be that, as above, we simply don't use words in the same contexts. It might also be the case that you are not as clever as you think you are, some combination thereof of something completely different.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am I wouldn't use syntax in that context.
You wouldn't. Any computer scientist would.

It's notation without connotation. All formalisms can be "explained" to a computer which will crunch the symbols and spit out the answers
with zero concern for "gravity" or "falling objects"
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am Well, he took the mathematical Minkowski space and re-imagined it as a malleable substance which is warped by matter.
Seeme he left all that stuff out of the formalism...
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am I suppose you could make that case if you limit knowledge to propositional knowledge, but it seems a perfectly legitimate use of know to me.
I limit knowledge to informed guessing. As opposed to uninformed guessing.

It's an informed guess that the number of grains in the universe is either odd or even.
It's an uninformed guess that it's even.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am I wouldn't use 'lie' in that context either.
Misrepresenting the truth is always lying. You don't know the truth.

So you are always lying.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am Well, as always there are alternative explanations you might consider. It could be that, as above, we simply don't use words in the same contexts. It might also be the case that you are not as clever as you think you are, some combination thereof of something completely different.
Anything's possible. Except the impossible.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:54 amMisrepresenting the truth is always lying. You don't know the truth.

So you are always lying.
I don't claim to know much truth, that's why I say philosophy is story telling. You call story telling lying, I don't.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:54 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:36 am Well, as always there are alternative explanations you might consider. It could be that, as above, we simply don't use words in the same contexts. It might also be the case that you are not as clever as you think you are, some combination thereof of something completely different.
Anything's possible. Except the impossible.
Perhaps, but none of the above is impossible.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:10 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 9:54 amMisrepresenting the truth is always lying. You don't know the truth.

So you are always lying.
I don't claim to know much truth, that's why I say philosophy is story telling. You call story telling lying, I don't.
I don't call it lying. It's an euphemism for lying.

But hey, seems you've changed your mind now... apparently you know parts of the truth.
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:10 am Perhaps, but none of the above is impossible.
None that you know of anyway.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:40 amBut hey, seems you've changed your mind now... apparently you know parts of the truth.
No. I have always said that the one thing that is definitely true is that there is consciousness. Congratulations Skepdick, you have bored me into submission.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 am
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:40 amBut hey, seems you've changed your mind now... apparently you know parts of the truth.
No. I have always said that the one thing that is definitely true is that there is consciousness. Congratulations Skepdick, you have bored me into submission.
There where?

Boredom is the logical conclusion of all philosophy. Evening questioning the questioners is boring. It's lame, formulaic and circular when done for its own sake. Even if you discover The Truth, and tell the Greatest Story Ever Told - then what happens?

It's meaningless unless contextualised.
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:48 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 amI have always said that the one thing that is definitely true is that there is consciousness. Congratulations Skepdick, you have bored me into submission.
There where?
Oh please. Are you really so autistic that you cannot interpret 'there' without reference to location?
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:48 amBoredom is the logical conclusion of all philosophy. Evening questioning the questioners is boring. It's lame, formulaic and circular when done for its own sake. Even if you discover The Truth, and tell the Greatest Story Ever Told - then what happens?
It will still be underdetermined. Carry on, everyone.
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:48 amIt's meaningless unless contextualised.
Philosophy without context is logic, which I grant you is boring. It is in no small part what makes you boring.
Skepdick
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:48 am
Will Bouwman wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:46 amI have always said that the one thing that is definitely true is that there is consciousness. Congratulations Skepdick, you have bored me into submission.
There where?
Oh please. Are you really so autistic that you cannot interpret 'there' without reference to location?
Well, I am certainly less autistic than somebody who doesn't think there's a difference between "here is consciousness" and "there is consciousness".

I can count, you see. Here makes one location. Here + there makes two locations.

And I don't know if there's consciousness but here is an interpreter. Refering to myself of course. Shout if you want to know more about mechanistic interpretability.
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm It will still be underdetermined. Carry on, everyone.
More or less under-determined than the previous story?

They teach you about calculus and integrals in philosopy, right?
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm Philosophy without context is logic, which I grant you is boring. It is in no small part what makes you boring.
Don't pin this on me. I've been poking you with a stick to contextualise philosophy for years.

Why bother with story telling? There has to be a reason you are doing what you are doing. Surely?
Will Bouwman
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm
Skepdick wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 10:48 amThere where?
Oh please. Are you really so autistic that you cannot interpret 'there' without reference to location?
Well, I am certainly less autistic than somebody who doesn't think there's a difference between "here is consciousness" and "there is consciousness".

I can count, you see. Here makes one location. Here + there makes two locations.
Main signs of autism:
Common signs of autism in adults include:
  • taking things very literally
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/autism/signs/adults/
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pmAnd I don't know if there's consciousness...
Still not getting it.
  • finding it hard to understand what others are thinking
It's not rocket science; every time you think "I don't know if there's consciousness", you are necessarily conscious.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pm...but here is an interpreter. Refering to myself of course.
You don't need to specify "here is an interpreter". The less literal "there is an interpreter" is how people without your condition speak. We also understand that you are referring to you, and don't need telling in so literal a fashion.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm It will still be underdetermined. Carry on, everyone.
More or less under-determined than the previous story?
All stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:41 pm Philosophy without context is logic, which I grant you is boring. It is in no small part what makes you boring.
Don't pin this on me. I've been poking you with a stick to contextualise philosophy for years.
This comes back to your inability to understand what other people are saying. The story telling part of philosophy is contextualising.
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pmWhy bother with story telling? There has to be a reason you are doing what you are doing. Surely?
I like stories.
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