Philosophy undermines truth

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Dontaskme
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Dontaskme »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:27 pm
But maybe you know something I don’t?
Well, if you know something I don't then I can just get that know anytime I want from the same place the you get's know from.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

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You've dodged this question twice now, so I am certain I must re-ask it...
Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:48 am With my online psychologist hat on, let me tell you that is not what I call compulsive behaviour.
With your hat on you forgot to answer my question: Where on the spectrum of compulsive behaviour do you place the game of "trying to get reality right"?
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:53 pm You've dodged this question twice now, so I am certain I must re-ask it...
Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:48 am With my online psychologist hat on, let me tell you that is not what I call compulsive behaviour.
With your hat on you forgot to answer my question: Where on the spectrum of compulsive behaviour do you place the game of "trying to get reality right"?
Cripes! You really are forgetful:
Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:36 pmIt has clearly slipped your mind: all stories are underdetermined.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 9:24 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 8:53 pm You've dodged this question twice now, so I am certain I must re-ask it...
Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:48 am With my online psychologist hat on, let me tell you that is not what I call compulsive behaviour.
With your hat on you forgot to answer my question: Where on the spectrum of compulsive behaviour do you place the game of "trying to get reality right"?
Cripes! You really are forgetful:
Will Bouwman wrote: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:36 pmIt has clearly slipped your mind: all stories are underdetermined.
Well... the story that Earth is flat is underdetermined. The story that Earth is an oblate spheroid is underdetermined, but if you think that one underdetermination is like the other you may be a the point of the OP...
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:48 amWell... the story that Earth is flat is underdetermined. The story that Earth is an oblate spheroid is underdetermined, but if you think that one underdetermination is like the other you may be a the point of the OP...
You really do have a poor memory:
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pmAll stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:09 pm
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 6:48 amWell... the story that Earth is flat is underdetermined. The story that Earth is an oblate spheroid is underdetermined, but if you think that one underdetermination is like the other you may be a the point of the OP...
You really do have a poor memory:
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pmAll stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Nowhere near as poor as your memory.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am Great! So how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pmMore or less under-determined than the previous story?
All stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Almost as if underdetermination doesn't stop you from making decisions in practice.

Almost as if all underdetermined stories aren't equally under-determined.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Sculptor »

Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 am P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
I wonder what that means. :?
P1. So what has Godel's opinion to do with it?
P2. Do they? How and where?
C. Conclusion not met, even if P1&P2
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Sculptor wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:21 pm
Harbal wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 8:08 am
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 7:39 am P1. Gödel brought to our attention the existence of unprovable truths.
P2. Philosophical social norms discriminate against the uttering of unprovable claims, even if those claims are true.
C. Therefore Philosophy values justification more than it values truth and in doing so undermines truth.

This leaves an open question: If Philosophy undermines the pursuit of truth; then what shall truth-seekers practice instead?
I wonder what that means. :?
P1. So what has Godel's opinion to do with it?
P2. Do they? How and where?
C. Conclusion not met, even if P1&P2
P1. Sculptor doesn't understand (in)completeness.
P2. Sculptor doesn't understand (in)completeness.
C. Sculptor doesn't understand (in)completeness.

Q.E.D
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:09 pmYou really do have a poor memory...
Nowhere near as poor as your memory.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am Great! So how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Bit of an odd quote to pull up if you are hoping to demonstrate a shoddy memory on my part. You clearly have forgotten that I already gave my response:
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 amWell, it seems to me that in order to think, one must exist. I don't happen to believe that in order to exist, one must think.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pm
Skepdick wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 1:49 pmMore or less under-determined than the previous story?
All stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Almost as if underdetermination doesn't stop you from making decisions in practice.
You don't understand Descartes' point, and you certainly don't understand how it rubs up against underdeterminism. If you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.
In practice, nearly everyone decides to ignore that possibility and assume that there is a world out there. That being so, underdeterminism only applies when there are two or more theories that explain the same phenomenon equally well. For example, we currently have no way of determining whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, or the exchange of virtual particles called gravitons. A rocket scientist might well say 'shut up and calculate' because all they need to know is how big a rocket to build to overcome the effect of gravity, never mind the cause.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pmAlmost as if all underdetermined stories aren't equally under-determined.
If two ideas for the same phenomenon aren't equally underdetermined, they aren't underdetermined, because you have a reason to choose one over the other. Issues that are underdetermined include things like whether god exists, or if morality is objective. On those types of issue, people who make decisions do so for essentially aesthetic reasons, even if they convince themselves post hoc, that they have sound reasons for their choice.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:06 am
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:09 pmYou really do have a poor memory...
Nowhere near as poor as your memory.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am Great! So how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Bit of an odd quote to pull up if you are hoping to demonstrate a shoddy memory on my part. You clearly have forgotten that I already gave my response:
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 amWell, it seems to me that in order to think, one must exist. I don't happen to believe that in order to exist, one must think.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pmAll stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Almost as if underdetermination doesn't stop you from making decisions in practice.
You don't understand Descartes' point, and you certainly don't understand how it rubs up against underdeterminism. If you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.
In practice, nearly everyone decides to ignore that possibility and assume that there is a world out there. That being so, underdeterminism only applies when there are two or more theories that explain the same phenomenon equally well. For example, we currently have no way of determining whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, or the exchange of virtual particles called gravitons. A rocket scientist might well say 'shut up and calculate' because all they need to know is how big a rocket to build to overcome the effect of gravity, never mind the cause.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pmAlmost as if all underdetermined stories aren't equally under-determined.
If two ideas for the same phenomenon aren't equally underdetermined, they aren't underdetermined, because you have a reason to choose one over the other. Issues that are underdetermined include things like whether god exists, or if morality is objective. On those types of issue, people who make decisions do so for essentially aesthetic reasons, even if they convince themselves post hoc, that they have sound reasons for their choice.
I understand just fine. I understand so well, in fact I am going to keep drilling you on the question.

Story X is underdetermined.
Story Y is underdetermined

More than that - you keep saying that ALL stories are underdetermined. Perhaps as I keep plagiarising Rorty - there are no privileged descriptions.

And yet... despite ALL stories being underdetermined you are always (somehow) managing to choose one; as opposed to being paralyzed with choice.

HOW and WHY?

What makes one underdetermined story better than all other underdetermined stories?

Hint: "essentially aesthetic reasons" doesn't really answer the question about what those reasons are.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:06 am
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 2:09 pmYou really do have a poor memory...
Nowhere near as poor as your memory.
Skepdick wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 9:43 am Great! So how and why did you choose the story Cogito ergo sum; over the story Sum ergo cogito?
Bit of an odd quote to pull up if you are hoping to demonstrate a shoddy memory on my part. You clearly have forgotten that I already gave my response:
Will Bouwman wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 10:11 amWell, it seems to me that in order to think, one must exist. I don't happen to believe that in order to exist, one must think.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pm
Will Bouwman wrote: Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:51 pmAll stories, hypotheses and theories are underdetermined. Some are much more plausible than others, some better supported, some more parsimonious, but it is very difficult to rule anything out completely.
Almost as if underdetermination doesn't stop you from making decisions in practice.
You don't understand Descartes' point, and you certainly don't understand how it rubs up against underdeterminism. If you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.
In practice, nearly everyone decides to ignore that possibility and assume that there is a world out there. That being so, underdeterminism only applies when there are two or more theories that explain the same phenomenon equally well. For example, we currently have no way of determining whether gravity is caused by warped spacetime, or the exchange of virtual particles called gravitons. A rocket scientist might well say 'shut up and calculate' because all they need to know is how big a rocket to build to overcome the effect of gravity, never mind the cause.
Skepdick wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:01 pmAlmost as if all underdetermined stories aren't equally under-determined.
If two ideas for the same phenomenon aren't equally underdetermined, they aren't underdetermined, because you have a reason to choose one over the other. Issues that are underdetermined include things like whether god exists, or if morality is objective. On those types of issue, people who make decisions do so for essentially aesthetic reasons, even if they convince themselves post hoc, that they have sound reasons for their choice.
To sum this all up; you seem to have gone from "Philosophy is story-telling"; to "All stories are underdetermined." to "some stories about some issues aren't underdetermined"

It's like you don't know what "all" means in English 🤷‍♂️
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Will Bouwman »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:41 amTo sum this all up; you seem to have gone from "Philosophy is story-telling"; to "All stories are underdetermined." to "some stories about some issues aren't underdetermined"

It's like you don't know what "all" means in English 🤷‍♂️
I'll say it again:
Will Bouwman wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:06 amYou don't understand Descartes' point, and you certainly don't understand how it rubs up against underdeterminism. If you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

Will Bouwman wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:46 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:41 amTo sum this all up; you seem to have gone from "Philosophy is story-telling"; to "All stories are underdetermined." to "some stories about some issues aren't underdetermined"

It's like you don't know what "all" means in English 🤷‍♂️
I'll say it again:
Will Bouwman wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:06 amYou don't understand Descartes' point, and you certainly don't understand how it rubs up against underdeterminism. If you accept Cartesian grade scepticism, then the hypothesis that you are being deceived and everything you experience is the product of an evil demon, becomes a working hypothesis. There is no conceivable experiment you could conduct that could falsify such an idea, making it underdetermined and therefore, every other idea as well.
It's like I am speaking to a brick wall.

Yes! I understand all of the above; and I am further pointing out that the above is trivial and direct implication of "ALL stories are underdetermined" without the need for the Cartesian verbiage.

The fact that you have the need to re-explain something I clearly understand sure suggests that you may be stupid; or perhaps you are just using me as a sounding board?

Try to keep up with the conversation, or ask for help if your English comprehension is becoming a hurdle.

If "ALL stories are underdetermined" then HOW do you choose any given story?
all predeterminer · determiner · pronoun : used to refer to the whole quantity or extent of a particular group or thing.
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by attofishpi »

Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:49 am If "ALL stories are underdetermined" then HOW do you choose any given story?
I'd think, that if many underdetermined stories arrived at point B, then attempting to find which "story" arrives at point B with the most efficiency, should be examined first.

Sort of, Occams Razor stuff. (how water flows etc..)
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Re: Philosophy undermines truth

Post by Skepdick »

attofishpi wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:02 am
Skepdick wrote: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:49 am If "ALL stories are underdetermined" then HOW do you choose any given story?
I'd think, that if many underdetermined stories arrived at point B, then attempting to find which "story" arrives at point B with the most efficiency, should be examined first.

Sort of, Occams Razor stuff. (how water flows etc..)
So why can't we just focus on B and ignore the stories?

Example: We agree that murder is wrong.

WHY is murder wrong? There are many stories - none of them matter.
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